Even if you comment on Sam's growth of character or his redemption arc, they are angry because they see no need for redemption. After all he was all alone because of Dean's actions. "

I've actually always appreciated your posts, Robijean, especially the insight you gave us last season, about addicts, and their families. I'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle my opinions now, but that's your choice.

Saying "Dean shouldn't have said/done X, but Sam said or did X so therefore it's okay" is not pointing out good things Dean has done and then getting jumped on because of crazy fans who think that makes Sam look bad. I am also almost positive that I personally have never said that Sam didn't need redemption, or that he did nothing wrong. I have said that I didn't, and still don't, trust the show to give him that redemption, but I do believe he needs it. Honestly, I don't care what you, or Lianne7 think of me, my opinions, or people who happen to share them. But I'm not sure why you feel the need to put the other side of things down.

I sometimes think Uriel said what he did to make Castiel feel even more guilt at having Dean torture Alistair by pointing out there was really no need since only angels could kill angels. At the end of On the Head of a Pin, I didn't believe Uriel since it argued with previous points brought out.

I remember fans stretching to claim the dead angels mentioned in Episode 2 in the season were the same angels being referred to in this late season episode. They felt there was a plot hole there they needed to plug because they bought into Uriel's statement even though it outright contradicted Anna's statement to Sam in Heaven and Hell.

Sam. You told me once that you pray, I'm not sure if that's still true. Probably not, but if it is, give it one last try. Pray for me, Sammy. Don't give in, one Winchester lost is enough. When this is over get on with your life.

I think this is very much in keeping with what we heard from Dean in No Rest for the Wicked. I know many think paragraph 2 is for Castiel but I am not so sure – why would Castiel need the Impala and I think he is referring to that rather than Lisa. If it is Lisa I could understand asking someone with angel mojo to make sure she and her son are alright.

What I'm trying to say is Sam did get addressed in this letter and it was a very emotional message. Remember in HotH and in ITGP, SW we had discussions about Sam's praying and loss of belief. That's why I think he asked him if he still prayed. He saw his loss of faith, but didn't know if he stopped praying, re-started praying. The last paragraph was definitely addressed to and was for Sam.

Even if you comment on Sam's growth of character or his redemption arc, they are angry because they see no need for redemption. After all he was all alone because of Dean's actions.

I saw the scene in the panic room as Dean reiterating what Sam has said to him all season. From the 2nd episode we have seen Sam saying he may not be strong enough to resist. In that episode, Sam wasn't sure if he was strong enough to resist the demon blood and the power it represented.

After Lucifer appears he immediately calls Dean, he needs his help to resist becoming his vessel. In a number of other episodes including the one where Dean made his decision (so very appropriate to consider in the discussion of the panic room scene), we have Sam saying he needs Dean to keep him strong. We saw it in TSRTS when they returned from the past. Dean kept reassuring his brother but he has nothing left anymore.

I also find it interesting that Sam for an entire season 4 says Dean wasn't strong enough and that's why he did what he did. This is justified by Dean wasn't really acting that strong. Dean never actually came out and told Sam he wasn't sure he was strong enough. That's what we've had this season from Sam, comments saying he isn't sure so why shouldn't Dean believe that Sam may not be strong enough.

I hope you continue coming and posting Dean's POV – I used to try but found it difficult to continue circular discussions with no real response other than – quit discussing what led up to this episode and what happened. Some who post here hate their perception of where the show is taking Dean – making him some sort of saint who can do no wrong. I would hate a character like that and don't think that is where the show is going.

What amazes me is the reasons Sam is loved is the reasons we don't see his emotions all over the screen – Sam has always been and will always be a more private and internalized character. It is who Sam was in the first episode and who he continues to be. He is the brother who didn't tell the girl he planned to marry about his past. And I understand why, it wasn't a life he was going to live again. But it was still a lot to keep in the dark.

This was just one of many early examples of Sam keeping things to himself. He didn't tell Dean about his visions of Jessica's death until he absolutely had to and this could have been important about why things happened as they did.

Dean in the first episode let Sam know he didn't want to hunt for their father by himself. In the early episodes we saw him share much more with Sam – we knew where we stood with Dean.

There was no big deal then about Sam's characterization. Later it was a problem because of Sam's actions IMO. Fans didn't approve of his actions and wanted a detailed look at why he did what he did, but like always we didn't get that for Sam – we never have from the pilot episode onward.

What I don't understand is why hate the character of Dean because they have continued to portray him in the same manner as they did early on and why think Sam is getting a raw deal as they have continued to portray him in the same manner as they did in the beginning. Dean is more open, Sam is more private and internal.

Yes…the ending made me so very happy

I love this show so much!

Joan

But I guess my POV is really in the minority here though, LOL. Ah well.

Anyway, thanks again.

Oh and I really miss Hendrickson too! I loved that guy.

For example, you are criticizing Dean here for his APOLOGY to Sam:

"And don't even get me started on the "apology" Dean offers up at the end, that isn't so much of an apology as it is an excuse to explain his behavior. Check it out, the words "I'm sorry" never once pass his lips. Maybe I was raised in a more exacting household than I thought, but that wouldn't cut it with my family."

He actually apologized, and yet for some reason that's not good enough. Yet when I pointed out above that Sam never said he was "sorry" to Dean for the way he behaved toward Dean last season, and even in the Fallen Idols example… Sam doesn't say he's "sorry" for going off with Ruby. He also explains why he behaved how he did. Is that okay if it's Sam but not okay if it's Dean (who, by the way, has told Sam specifically that he was "sorry" about the way he treated him last year).

"I'm hearing a lot of buts, a lot of justifying, and a lot of Sam blaming."

Well I'm hearing a lot of "buts" and "justifying" from you as well, for example:

"but Dean is the ONLY family Sam has left," [So that excuses him for saying that he needs Dean because he's the only thing that keeps him going? And yeah, to me, he means Dean is the only thing keeping him from saying yes to Lucifer.]

And you are blaming Dean for saying yes because of course he thinks the absolute worst in Sam:

"And of course, he uses this to justify his own decision to give in and say yes, because if he's saddled with such a pathetic, wimp of a brother, he's going to have to be the one to sacrifice himself and say yes to clean up that sorry sad sack of a brother's mess."

Oh and it's interesting because I do believe that Sam used the same "justification" when he believed he was the only one strong enough to kill Lilith.

Finally, of course I'm bringing Sam into the discussion because I'm discussion the relationship between Sam and Dean and how they interact. I'm interested in Dean's reactions to Sam and also Sam's reactions to Dean.

Look, I get it. You don't like Dean, that much is clear from reading your posts here. But I do see Dean's POV. I also see Sam's POV but since really not many others here are defending Dean or really trying to understand him, I felt like maybe Dean's POV could be represented here. Apparently I was wrong, so I'll bow out of the discussion now.

I think that strong demonstration of faith was something Dean needed. With his lack of self-esteem I think it was always difficult for him to see any reason why someone should have the kind of faith in him Sam said he did.  

I saw a difference in Sam (or the way Jared played Sam) in this scene to the way he has in other scenes where he proclaimed his faith in his big brother. He was much more understated, less emotional, just a calm statement of fact followed by the act of releasing Dean. It really resonated with me as a viewer and I think it was meant to – we were meant to see this was a stronger, more confident, less desperate Sam. So many of the other times, like Fresh Blood, when he was worried about Dean (going to hell and being suicidal before the fact), the desperation showed through and I would think that would have an impact on how much credence Dean put in what he said.

Dean should have realized his brother had faith in him and I think he was beginning to before the deal. He got a lot of flack in Season 3 about his behavior and in Season 4 I don't think Sam did have much faith in him. He loved him but thought him weak – and he voiced that opinion. In the first episode of this season, Dean said it would take a lot to get past that. There hasn't been much chance for them to work on their relationship.

The last 3 (4 if you count MBV in it's proper order) episodes have shown Sam making great strides in so many areas – finally we are seeing what we were promised for the character. I think his acknowledgement and requesting being locked down because of Famine's induced hunger for demon blood was something we wouldn't have seen in the past. Sam would have felt he was strong enough to fight the desire on his own. He knows better now and he acted on that knowledge.

I've loved the growth we've seen in his character and I loved how this growth allowed him to stop Dean's downward spiral. Sam tried to save Dean from hell and failed, it has weighed on him ever since. Well now he has succeeded in saving Dean from another kind of hell – the guilt of saying yes and being responsible for the death of half the planet. 

Quite the accomplishment and they gave it to Sam – not Bobby, not Castiel, not even Dean himself coming to his senses – no it was Sam his brother – the only one who's belief in him really matters. I was so thankful when it played out that way. I know a lot of fans weren't happy about it being all about Sam but to me it has always been all about the other brother with these two and I was glad to see it again.

My fervent hope is that it will also be all about Sam and Dean for the remaining four episodes. I think the two of them working together is going to be the solution and I don't want to see either one doing it on his own or with the help of others.

No, he didn't say it was his fault as well. He said it was his fault. End of story. He cited Dean as a reason, but took responsibility for the choice that he made, regardless of the reasons.

"Oh, I agree. That's why I feel that Sam is giving off conflicting vibes about his expectations of Dean. And why I thought his specific words to Dean – that he "only has ONE thing" (i.e. Dean) keeping him going – had to be very confusing to Dean. But yes, JMO."

I get the feeling that if Dean had said the same thing to Sam, you wouldn't think there was a thing confusing or conflicting about that statement. I don't understand exactly what is so confusing about it. Sam said he needed Dean. He didn't say he needed Dean to tell him what to do, or to clean up his mess, or even to keep him from saying yes. He just said he needed him, that Dean was the only thing he had to keep him going (and if he didn't have Dean, what does he have to fight for? That doesn't mean he should, or would say yes, but Dean is the ONLY family Sam has left, I think Sam is allowed to need Dean). That's not confusing. It's not conflicting. It's not mixed signals. It's a simple statement.

I..I'm at a loss here. We're not going to accomplish anything. I'm NEVER going to agree that Dean is being manipulated, or forced to do anything. I don't agree that Dean should be at all confused about how Sam feels about him, or what Sam wants. I feel like we're trying to discuss Dean, but you're continually bringing Sam into the mix to use him, and blaming him, to iron out the parts of Dean's behavior that don't wash. I'm hearing a lot of buts, a lot of justifying, and a lot of Sam blaming. I'm not on board with that kind of thinking or reasoning at all, and we're going in circles. Agree to disagree, that's all we can do.

IMO, yeah he did. Oh sure, Sam said it was his fault as well, but still, he didn't have to associate DEAN'S behavior with his own choice to go with Ruby in this particular conversation. But if Sam wanted to make it more CLEAR that he didn't blame Dean, he could have just told Dean that he was tired of being treated like the little brother, that the dynamic didn't work for him,and that he needed it to change before in order for their partnership to work. But Sam brought Ruby into a conversation that should have been about the two of them.

Sam told Dean that it wasn't his fault… but still, Dean was one reason he went with Ruby. So in the end, Dean does believe what Sam told him — that his behavior was one of the reasons Sam wanted to get away from him and wanted to be with Ruby. And thus, the apology from Dean to Sam for not recognizing this.

"Again, there's a huge difference in supporting each other, and "keeping [each other] going" and saying that Dean is the ONLY thing keeping him from saying yes. "

Oh, I agree. That's why I feel that Sam is giving off conflicting vibes about his expectations of Dean. And why I thought his specific words to Dean – that he "only has ONE thing" )i.e. Dean) keeping him going – had to be very confusing to Dean.

I do think Dean and Sam had been working rather well together all things considered. They did seem to be on the same page for the most part, but I think what happened in MBV and 99 Problems simultaneously knocked the wind out of Dean but also opened his eyes to the reality of what is happening to innocent people (death and destruction) because of Dean's refusal to say yes to Michael. In the parts deciphered in the letter Dean wrote, we can see that Dean has been thinking about this for awhile and weighed the pros and cons before he made his final decision.

SAM: "Dean, one of the reasons I went off with Ruby…was to get away from you."

"You" = Dean's actions and behavior."

You've conveniently left out the next part of the script:

DEAN
What?

SAM
It made me feel strong. Like I wasn't your kid brother.

DEAN
Are you saying this is my fault?

SAM
No, it's my fault. All I'm saying is that, if we're gonna do this, we have to do it different, we can't just fall into the same rut.

Don't know how much clear Sam could make it. He didn't blame Dean for it. He said, rightly so, that it was his fault. Not Dean's.

Varying mileage indeed on what Sam said in 99 Problems. Your interpretation of how Sam meant what he said isn't proof for me, sorry. He never once in that statement said that Dean was responsible for keeping him from saying yes, or that if Dean said yes, that he would also say yes. Again, there's a huge difference in supporting each other, and "keeping [each other] going" and saying that Dean is the ONLY thing keeping him from saying yes.

Sure. In Fallen Idols, Sam told Dean that his behavior was responsible for him going off with Ruby:

SAM: "Dean, one of the reasons I went off with Ruby…was to get away from you."

"You" = Dean's actions and behavior. Sam told Dean that he needed to change his behavior ("Before didn't work.") because this led Sam to choose Ruby (the demon who got him addicted to demon blood and convinced him to kill Lilith and break the final seal). And Dean took this to heart I think. Dean admitted this behavior made him blind to what was actually going on with Sam. And he told Sam that he was sorry for that.

As far as "proof" that Sam still believes Dean is responsible for Sam's actions. In my opinion, this:

SAM: "You can’t do this to me. I got one thing, one thing, keeping me going. You think you’re the only one white-knuckling it here, Dean? I can’t count on anyone else. I can’t do this alone."

To me this is Sam telling Dean that his action (saying yes to Michael) will affect Sam's actions (he will no longer be able to keep going). Now perhaps this is just a problem with how it's written because I think a better thing for Sam to say would have been to reiterate Dean's "we need to keep each other human" statement, but that's not how this quote reads to me. YMMV I understand.

Nobody, including myself, said you're not entitled to an opinion, and you know that. But until this comment, you've added a "but Sam" or "Sam did [insert thing here]" to pretty much all the stuff you've said about Dean. That's why I said it was handwaving. Like I said, there are reasons for what both of them have done that involve their brother and their relationship. But those reasons don't excuse, or justify what they did. They both have issues, they both have made mistakes, and will make mistakes again since, thank God, they're both only human.

As far as Dean's role in all of this, well, he broke in hell and broke that first seal. IMO, he's taken responsibility for it. He was in hell because of the choice he made to make the deal for Sam's life. And he admitted this to Sam in NRFTW and he said he was sorry, and that this was all his fault. He has tried to change his big brotherly ways this season, but he's failed at this too. And when he realizes his failure, he apologizes to Sam for it. I think Dean sincerely wants to change but he is struggling with it. He will probably always struggle not to see himself as the big brother and Sam as the little brother. I doubt if he'll ever not feel responsible for protecting Sam, but again, that's HIS problem and one that he needs to work on.

And just because I have a different opinion and point of view doesn't mean that I'm "handwaving" anything. Just because I don't agree with your opinion of Dean and have a different point of view doesn't automatically mean I'm just handwaving Dean's behavior. I'm just stating my own opinion. I believe I'm entitled to do that?

It's a very good question. I think the events of the The End really affected Dean and weigh heavily on his mind still. It has to be totally freaky to see YOURSELF in the future and then to know that all of these horrible things happened because you said no to Michael… I don't know. To me it seems that no matter what he does, he loses. And of course Lucifer called it already… "I win. So, I win."