Supernatural: Point of No Return
Faith in the Atmosphere
by Sylvia Bond
Supernatural Episode Review – Season 5, Episode 18
“Point of No Return”
Well, that was a pretty good episode, if I do say so myself. Not that I had anything to do with the making of it, of course, as my contribution has been in watching Show, keeping the faith, keeping my fingers crossed. Waiting for the moment that Dean and/or Sam would say yes to their respective meatsuit duties. But even though that did happen (sort of), and even though I was able to recite dialog along with the characters from time to time (mostly Zach for some odd reason), it didn’t turn out the way I would have thought. And that’s okay, because I would rather Show take an unexpected turn than to bore me to tears and make me wish I had watched something else.
The ep opens with Zach in a bar drinking away his woes with a human. They both talk about getting the pink slip from their jobs, and how degrading it is. Then God (or some other omniscient being) shines his light down and Zach gets his job back, and is no doubt fully reinstated with a pension plan, a bonus scheme, and all his health benefits. At the same time, the humans in the bar, because they cannot process the power of the Holiest of Holies, end up with as smoking corpses with their eyes burned out. Which, when you think about it, makes a clever allusion to what is happening in the real world. The big fat cats get rescued from disasters of their own making, while the regular Joes of this world run out of time and become mere statistics with no more unemployment benefits. So has Show always had a social conscience, or was this just a lucky coincidence?
Meanwhile in a grotty motel, Dean is drinking straight from the bottle while he packs up his most prized possessions. They are, to wit: his leather jacket (which represents his self-image as well as his past), his key ring (which represents the Impala, which then represents the open road along with his free will), and his pearl-handled Taurus 1911 (which represents his chosen vocation: saving people, hunting things). In short, everything that he has, is, or was goes into the box. Then, in block, all caps letters, he is writing a farewell letter. (A nice touch is the detritus of the paper bag that the glass he is half-using was wrapped in, after it was probably oh-so-carefully sanitized by the motel staff.)
The walls of this little dive are a deep green, and Dean is dressed in black and grey, all the tones of which make his skin paper white, as if he’s experiencing a shock from which he cannot recover. (And frankly, green is such a good color for Dean. It makes his eyes bright and his mouth lush and ashen rose, just like the best heroine in a romance novel. But I like him this way, even if he is about to die.) Every little detail points to Dean saying his last goodbyes before he says yes, but all I have to say is, he sure as hell better be writing that letter to SAM, even if he is addressing the box to Magical Bobby. Because, yes, even if Sam doesn’t have a fixed address, Sam is one of the most prized and valued things in Dean’s life. And I have the episode right here to prove it.
All too soon (or, rather, just in time) Sam appears in the doorway. Deep inside, Sam is a bloodhound. He could find a sugar cube in a snowstorm, so it is child’s play for him to track Dean down to the penultimate stop in what Sam refers to as Dean’s “farewell tour.” He even asks after Lisa, because he knows exactly where his brother has been and why he has gone there. (Would he have been so perceptive earlier on, it wouldn’t have gotten to this. Ah, me.) Behind Sam through the open door (which has a 100 on it, in honor of this being Show’s 100th ep) is a concrete block barrier that is covered with what could be lichen or moss. Or maybe it’s just paint. At any rate, it is green. (And is the name of the motel a shout out to the Archangel Mike? Only the set dressers know for sure.)
Sam is wearing a dark jacket that looks olive green to me. The shirt he’s wearing has bits of green striping, and everything that is green around him brings out the sparkle in Sam’s eyes, the rosy, hectic flush in his cheeks, like he’s been running full out. Even his Samhair sticks out like he’s been sleeping sitting up and hasn’t even had time to run his fingers through it.
Though, at the moment, the mien he presents to Dean is calm. Which tells a great deal even before Sam has said much of anything: he is not about to let Dean go marching off to whatever he feels Fate has prescribed for him. Not without Sam dogging his heels and hanging on and being such a pain in the ass that the only thing left for Dean to do is to stop and listen to what Sam has to day. Which, beautifully, points out that the opposite is true: Dean is one of the most prized and valued things in Sam’s life. And I have the episode to prove that, too.
All these details hit me at once, even before a whole lot of dialog has been spoken. And then it gets even better because then the dithering starts. Only it’s not a dither, not really, because the words they say to each other aren’t inconsequential exchanges that lead up to them making a decision about what to do about a case. No, it’s a real conversation. Sam accuses Dean of going on what is ostensibly a suicide mission, though it must have been rather hard to use the word “suicide” in the same breath as “muppet” without laughing. It doesn’t quite fit somehow.
Then it gets worse. For the boys at least, because for me it gets better. Because the boys are really talking, with Sam throwing out bon mots about Dean walking away, and Dean flinging back that he figures that’s Sam’s game. All true, and this is not the first time we’ve heard it. But what makes it a definitive conversation is that Sam states that he was wrong to walk away, every single time, and that Dean will be wrong if he does the same. There’s hard voices and dewy looks, and it’s a wonderful scene of the first water. Everything fits. Everything works. Show could stop it right there and it’d be 100% okay.
But it keeps going, because after all, we’re only about six minutes into the ep. Dean isn’t listening, isn’t going with Sam, isn’t going to let Sam stop him. Dean tells Sam he isn’t hopped up on demon blood and can’t make Dean do anything. Sam, however, has figured out another way. He uses something holy instead of something demonic, which I thought was interesting: he brings with him the Soap Angel, who promptly zaps Dean back to Magical Bobby’s house, where the plot can continue. I don’t think it’s that Sam and the Soap Angel are friends now, not exactly. More that their goals are the same and so these quasi-friends will fight together, on Dean’s behalf, at least for now.
At MB’s, Sam is studious and handsome bent over a pile of books. Dean is glowering and handsome as he leans against a bookshelf. Though MB is wearing a green t-shirt, his house is brown and red and ochre. All of which dulls the sparkly of the boys, and of course makes me miserable anyway, because if we’re at MB’s house, then MB must have something he needs to say. Which never seems to forward the plot, but instead comes across as lines of contractual obligation for the actor.
There is a hard discussion between Dean and MB as to whether or not what they are doing is futile. In the midst of the loud words flung about like so many sharp knives, MB says, “You can’t give up, son.” To which Dean, with nary a pause and in no uncertain terms, says, “You’re not my father.”
I stood up and applauded. Even though Show has insisted on having Dean say stuff about MB being “like a dad” to the boys, I have never felt that this was a valid thing for Dean to say. Even though, yes, I could agree with the fact that he would want a father figure in his life, I always felt that his statements about this were forced. Especially since there could be no one individual who could replace The Dad, and also because Sam never agreed with Dean about this.
Sam and MB have hardly ever exchanged two words that weren’t about hunting. At no time did I ever really see MB acting as a dad-figure for Sam. MB was just MB, an uncle figure perhaps, but never a dad-figure. So to have Dean SAY that MB wasn’t a father? Marvelous and perfect and too long in coming. Sam shakes his head at Dean. Not because he disagrees, I think, but because it was a cruel thing to say at such a moment, and Sam is being all empathic and sympathetic in this ep.
Cruel or not, I don’t quite know what to do or who to thank for the “not my father” line, but the bottom line is this. You cannot replace a dad. Any dad. Ever. And especially not a dad like The Dad, like John Winchester, who surely looms so large in Sam and Dean’s collective memories that he seems almost to be present even though his death is several years in the past. It’s an insult to John and his boys to imagine that such an influential and loved character (and honored and feared and respected and every other emotion that goes into both having a dad and being one) can be replaced. I just hope Show remembers this moment and keeps that in mind. Regardless of whether or not members of Show would want to replace their own dads, there’s no way that Sam and Dean ever could.
This significant, meaningful, and well written (and delivered) line from Dean is then followed by a burst of emo from MB, who insists that if Dean says yes, he will shoot himself. Of course, he’s got the gun and the bullet out, and then proceeds to chew the scenery, only not in a good way. MB is not (and should not be) a dramatic, emo mess who needs to shout and make threats to get his point across. If MB doesn’t want Dean to say yes, all he has to do is say so. I cringed at this line, not just for myself, but for MB fans everywhere. Why, oh why does Show give Beaver such clunky line like this?
Luckily we are saved from all the emotionalism by the Soap Angel having a moment of distress. Maybe it’s a migraine. Maybe it’s cramps. All I know is that he disappears in a flutter of paper and wind. I always enjoy Dean’s reaction, the chin jerk that he does when this happens, and he does it every time the Soap Angel takes to wing. Which gives the whole notion of someone disappearing in front of you a bit of realism, because it nicely offsets the fact that someone disappearing on you is quite impossible. Or should be impossible. Except this is Show, so, there you have it.
Anyway, the Soap Angel ends up deep, deep in the woods to have a muddy, knife flashing, angel puddle battle. I don’t care who he’s fighting, frankly, because I’m distracted by the body-sized indentions in the ground, which are filled up with water. This means that either Godzilla came through right after it rained, or Show had to film this scene several times in order for whoever was in the ground to break through the surface in the appropriately creepy way.
Well, it’s the latter, because soon enough the Soap Angel pulls a figure out of the ground. For one heart-stopping moment I thought, oh, joy, it’s The Dad. But no. It’s Adam, who you will recall held the dubious title of being Sam and Dean’s half brother, as well as being John’s illegitimate child. (There is no record that he married Adam’s mother.) But, the last we saw Adam was after his untimely death, with his gut cut open and his innards spilling out in a noisome, bloody mess. And now, what ho! He is of a piece, all intact, right down to his manly Winchester eyebrows, and those bright Winchester green eyes. Oh, those angels. Is there nothing they can’t do?
Back to MB’s house we go, where Sam is guarding the fridge, so Dean can’t get any beer unless he says the magic word. I thought this little throw-away interaction was terribly amusing, because siblings, you know. They’ll do their best to irritate you, just because they can. Then the Soap Angel arrives in a flurry of paper and dumps the kid on MB’s bed. There’s a little bit of dithering while Sam and Dean struggle to look sparkly against the ochre-colored walls of MB’s house. Okay. Let me clarify that. They don’t have to struggle to look pretty, ever, but ochre is so not their color. Maybe that’s part of the reason why I don’t like MB’s house, because it works so hard to dim the boys and their sparkly.
At any rate, they introduce themselves to Adam, and Adam already knows them. The angels told him and warned him about the Winchesters, so right at the moment, Adam is Zach’s boy. He gets cleaned up, and is served a dram of brandy (or whatever), and full out admits it. He knows the Winchester boys are liars, and they are not among the most prized and valued things in his life.
The most prized and valued thing in his life is his mother. Promises have been made by Zach that Adam will see his mom again if he does what he’s told. However, things don’t look promising for Adam because he doesn’t know what we know: Zach is a dick and will screw you over quicker than a corporate CEO. I did like the exchange between Dean and Adam, who take a little side trip from saving the world from the apocalypse to discuss Adam’s memory of working his way to third base with a girl (“missed it by that much”). And actually this, and was in keeping with their characters, as was Sam’s warning throat noises, worthy of any governess.
The discussion continues as Adam tells them he’s replaced Dean as the Chosen. He’s fairly casual about it, which means that he doesn’t understand the implications of what he’s agreeing to do. The Soap Angel speculates that the angels have moved on because Adam is John’s bloodline and, (more importantly!) Sam’s brother. Then he says, “Maybe they wrongly assumed Dean would be brave enough to withstand them.” Which doesn’t mean what he thinks it means, because the angels aren’t wrongly assuming this, they’re correctly assuming that Dean will withstand them and say no and thusly they have placed their bets on Adam.
At any rate, this is of no matter because Dean turns and snaps out, “You know what, blow me, Cas.” Only he doesn’t mean it in the most obvious way, even though the language is pretty provocative and had my friend in Alaska sputtering, “Oh, it’s just…and it…oh!” and I’ll swear she was squeaking instead of talking. (I truly believe that sometimes Show is messing with fans just to mess with them.) Sam, in the midst of this whole conversation is Mr. Cool, Mr. Objective, and Mr. Let Me Spell It Out For as he clarifies what’s at stake and what has to happen. In spite of the opportunity for his character to come to the fore, I was rather distracted by his splayed thighs and the way his manly hands lay upon them. Show has got my number, I know that they do, otherwise they wouldn’t keep doing this to me, distracting me from a fairly interesting plot by all this sexiness.
In spite of this distraction, I could clearly see that that Sam seems to be the only one keeping his cool throughout. Yes, he’s got feelings about it but under the pressure and the emo flying all around his lovely head, he’s rising to the occasion with a sense of purpose. As if his entire life has been structured to bring him to this moment, where his main job is to keep MB, Adam, the Soap Angel, and Dean all calm and talking. Which is, when you think about it, rather a lot to ask a character who so very recently, and for ever so long, has been relegated to Guest Towel status.
Sam wants Adam to trust him because they’re “blood.” To which Adam responded that “John Winchester was some guy who took me to a baseball game once a year. I don’t have a dad.” I was so very glad to have Dean in the room to hear that, although it might take a couple of repetitions for him to fully understand what it means. For all there were pictures of The Dad and Adam fishing and at a ball game (as I recall), Adam was never The Dad’s boy.
Adam was a once a year drive by, so to speak, and his mother even less than that, if The Dad was busy doing fatherly things with Adam instead of spending time with Adam’s mom. Which means that Sam and Dean were truly The Dad’s boys. His sons. I rather liked knowing that The Dad wasn’t ever that fickle as to choose another boy over his own. That while he was with Adam, even though The Dad was playing at Happy Families, what Dean got was real. Which won’t change facts, but perhaps will make Dean feel a little less unloved.
The plot thickens and the lighting darkens. Adam takes advantage of MB’s back being turned to try and sashay his way out the door. Only Sam is there, in a big shouldered, tall, imposing, in-your-face-you’re-not-escaping kind of way. Sam plies Adam with beer. In addition to the marvelous close-ups of Sam, the conversation had some interesting reveals. Sam makes comments about how The Dad was trying to protect Adam, even if Sam, previously, made a valiant attempt to train Adam in the ways of a hunter. Now Sam tells him, “The one thing worse than seeing The Dad once a year was seeing him all year. To which Adam replies, “Do you know how full of crap you are?” His point is well taken; he had no father and would have given anything to have what Sam had. And I think Sam agrees that what he had was valuable, which is saying a lot, considering how much Sam and The Dad butted heads over the years.
Sam goes down to the Panic Room, where lo and behold, Dean has been being kept while beer and badly made cheese and baloney sandwiches were being served in the house above him. (We get another provocative comment from Dean as he says to Cas, who is glowering at him, “Cas, the last person who looked at me like that, I got laid.” Oh my, how fun this dialog is.)
Sam is telling Dean that he gets it, but isn’t letting Dean do it. He’s got total control of the conversation, even if Dean’s not agreeing. Dean wants to say yes, and Sam doesn’t want him to. And like true siblings, they’re going to go round and round until one of them gives up. Only in this case, neither one is. But I love the fact that Sam wants them to stick together, regardless of the fact that Dean has no faith or trust in Sam and fully expects him to say yes to Lucky. (And while they talk, Dean’s face is in light, and Sam’s face is in shadow, and I want to know why!)
Another difficult conversation ensues upstairs, and the Soap Angel meanders to the Panic Room to check on Dean. Oh, man, did I love Dean in this scene. He’s not stupid, he’s never been stupid, but here, he becomes super smart. Charlie Eppes smart. Rodney McKay smart. He draws that symbol on the wall, and when the Soap Angel comes within range, he places his hand in the middle of it and zap, the Soap Angel is no longer there. Which gives Dean the opportunity to slip on what must surely be an olive green jacket and tip toe his way out of the darkly lit basement of MB’s house. To what end? Why to say yes, of course. Isn’t that been his whole plan all along?
Adam ends up in his heaven, which is a playground his mom used to take him to. (The fog makes a perfect setting for the dreamy idea of being in heaven.) Only Zach is there too, which makes this a little less than ideal for Adam, mostly because Zach tells him Adam must do Zach’s bidding for him first before he can see his mom. This makes perfect sense; continuity, thy name is Show. Zach is the type to dangle a carrot stick without ever meaning to follow through. He’s all bright eyed and chipper and lying through his teeth. Because while yes it’s true that Adam is of John’s blood line, he’s not also of Mary’s, which makes him less valuable.
More importantly than the lies Zach is telling Adam, is the truths he’s telling him as well. Amidst his diatribe about the Winchester boys, and how he feels they are completely unworthy of being God’s chosen, he applies a string of descriptors, most importantly this one: the boys are erotically co-dependent.
Wiki says erotic is the “state of arousal and anticipation, but also the attempt through various means to incite those feelings.” So does it mean that the boys are co-dependent in a way that is erotic to the observer? Or that they are they co-dependent to each other in an erotic sort of way? Regardless, it made my friend in Alaska squeak even more, although I was quick to tell her that just because Zach’s making this type of statement might make it okay, it doesn’t make it any more true because the whole of fandom has been saying it for years.
Still, that canon has now validated this idea (and along with the whole “soul mates” comment that Ash recently made), I think the votes are all in here. Say what you want, believe what you will, take it to the degree that you will (or not at all), but the fact remains: Sam and Dean belong together forever, and together is the only way they are going to be able to save the world. It’s the ultimate bromance.
Dean struts onto a street scene. (Please note the many neon signs for beer in the background. I’m not quite sure what they mean, but I’m thinking about it. And I’m thinking about it because Show keeps thrusting it in front of me.) He approaches a corner-standing bible thumper and makes his presence known so that he can get in touch with the angels to say yes. But guess who shows up instead? It’s the Soap Angel and boy is he pissed.
Why? Because after all that he’s done and sacrificed and given up, all in the name of protecting Dean from Zach (and from saying yes), Dean has to go and spoil it all by saying (and doing) something stupid. It was another angel puddle battle, but this time Dean was the focus of the Soap Angel’s rage. I wouldn’t think that normally a servant of heaven (even a fallen one) would unleash his rage like that on a human (and indeed, would they even experience anything other than adulant bliss at the Glory of God?) but it was a good fight.
Partly because it was fun watching a heretofore rather calm and unemotional character come apart. But mostly, I’ll admit, I like it when Dean gets battered like this. (If you could explain to me why, I’d be very grateful. The only thing that saves me is that I know I’m not alone.) More importantly, in addition to the fists flying and the bloody nose and Dean’s beautiful expressions of confusion and pain, is the wall slamming. Before this, Sam was the only person who cared enough (or got upset with Dean enough) to slam Dean against a wall. And while I’m not the biggest Soap Angel fan in the world (I’m probably the smallest), the fact remains that the Soap Angel means something to Dean. And for there to be wall slamming amidst all this anger? That means something too, and that is that Dean knows he’s betrayed the Soap Angel terribly badly.
Meanwhile, Sam and MB have a little fight about Adam being missing. Sam rips his hands through his Samhair, which makes it stand a little on edge, and makes me fall a little in love. Or, rather, a little more in love with this character. Then the Soap Angel shows up and dumps Dean’s body on MB’s bed. What is with this? It’s like the same scene as when Adam’s body was dumped on the bed, only different.
Meanwhile, Zach has taken Adam to the Green Room, which has the same surreal overtones that it did the last time Dean was there. There is even a bowl of ice cold beer and perfectly made cheeseburgers.
Let’s talk about the beer for a minute. Beer seems to be everywhere in this ep. First, Sam is standing in the way of Dean getting beer. Then he gives Adam beer, sort of as a treat for staying. Then there were all those beer signs outside the alley where the Soap Angel handed Dean his ass. Then Zach offers Adam beer in the Green Room, along with cheeseburgers, as an enticement to have Adam say yes to Mike. But why all this beer? Is it symbolic in some way?
Maybe the beer doesn’t mean anything. However, as you must know, beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy, according to Ben Franklin. So maybe the beer is allegorical, a symbol of God’s love, and a demonstration of his omnipresence. Maybe I’m reaching here, but the beer was everywhere in this ep. If you have a better idea, I’d like to hear it.
Anyway, while it’s entirely plausible that these beer and cheeseburgers are Adam’s favorite, they are known to be Dean’s, thus it’s obvious that what the angels still want is Dean. Poor Adam is an also-ran even before he’s out of the gate, and it’s not the small belch that is an indicator of Adam’s less than ascension-worthy status, even if it’s the most obvious evidence of it. No, it’s the fact that he eats and drinks what’s offered to him that slam him out of line as the Chosen. (Plus, now he’ll never get out of Fairy Land!) And Zach confirms it: Adam is out, he’s just there to be bait to attract Dean.
Back at MB’s, Sam has taken the opportunity of Dean’s unconsciousness to handcuff him to the bed in the Panic Room. (Yeah, okay boys, it’s like that, is it?) But however long Dean’s been handcuffed, Sam unlocks him the almost instant Dean wakes up. (And oh, how deliciously he does that!) Sam’s got a lot to say, most of it having to do with faith and trust and not doing it alone.
I’ve said it before this and I’ll say it again Regardless of what Dean has ever had and lost faith in (be it God or The Dad), Sam’s faith has always been vested in Dean. As long as Dean was around, Sam would always have his faith, his steadfastness would be intact. (Which is why, the Summer Dean Was in Hell Sam fell from grace and consorted with a demon, in more ways than one.)
Dean is honest with Sam in that if he gets out, he will go say yes to Mike. But Sam says that if Sam wants Dean to trust him (which he does, painfully so) then what he must do is trust Dean in return. And he trusts him to do with right thing. They’ve both relatively calm, and really talking and listening, and saying the truth. Sam has very high expectations for Dean. And what else can you do but rise to those expectations? Especially if you’re Dean, and Sam is your little brother and looking to you to do exactly the right thing? It’s the most beautiful conversation ever.
The daring trio trot out to Van Nuys, California, where the Green Room is hidden inside a small, shambled shack inside an abandoned warehouse. I make no claim to understanding why the Green Room is in California, or what the significance in Van Nuys is, or whether the palm tree (and its shadow) was faked. California has always been a rather surreal place both on the map and in dreams. California is the place you want to be, I’ve been told, because according to a visiting student from Germany, I surely wanted to move there as fast as I could because that’s where everything is and happens. And this said as if nothing ever happened anywhere else in the country. (Let’s just forget the Alamo, shall we?) Anyway, let’s take the Van Nuys reference as read and move on, okay?
There’s a bit of a dither, and the Soap Angel takes off his tie and proffers a box cutter. Why does he take off his tie? What’s with the box cutter? I do not know, but in he goes while the boys loiter outside. There’s another angle puddle battle, complete with its requisite flashing angel-killing knives, the dampness of the floor underfoot, and the spinning tails of the Soap Angel’s Colombo-styled raincoat.
I never doubted that he’d win, I just couldn’t ever imagine how. At the last minute, after he’s conned the angels in getting close to him, the Soap Angel shucks his coat and shirt, and presses his hand to his bare chest. Before you can hear the fangirls sigh, there you see that he’s carved that symbol into his skin that will send the other angels packing.
Hello, how? With the box cutter, of course. I had a moment, at that moment, and it went like this: “Holy frakking crap!” And in that moment, I was duly impressed that this floppy little secondary character, for whom I lost no love, would do something like that. Angels feel pain, at least they do in Show, so what must it have cost him to slice himself to shreds like that? I still don’t like the Soap Angel overly much, but yeah, I have to give him props for this move. It was slick and it took guts.
Then Dean enters the scene, finding his way into the Green Room to discover Adam crumbled on the floor and bleeding from the mouth. The whole scene had the feeling of the line from the Ralph Waldo Emerson poem, Give All to Love, which says, “When the half-gods go, the gods arrive.” Which in this case roughly translates to: “When Dean arrives, he’s first and everyone else is nowhere.” Poor Adam. He’s terribly moved by the fact that Dean came to save him. But perhaps Adam never had a chance to learn what Dean learned from the cradle: family is family, and that is more important than anything else.
While Zach is tormenting Dean and Adam, Sam comes up from behind to slash and stab. Perhaps he’s a bit worked up because he misses and is easily swatted away, like an errant fly. Still, I liked the setup of this scene, of Dean and Sam acting together, sword and shield. Or in this case, distracting chatter and flashing angel-killing sword. Just the same. Sam and Dean acting together, what could be better?
Zach pulls his strings like the puppeteer he is. He’s got both Adam and Sam on the floor coughing up blood, and it occurred to me to wonder why he’d never tried this trick before? But at any rate, he’s got Dean by the short and curlies; Dean has to say yes right now or the brother and the half-brother get it. (This is a well-known trope for TV villains everywhere, but it works for me every time.)
The expression on Dean’s face when he looks at Adam is full of regret and sorrow, as one might feel for any human being in that predicament. But when he looks at Sam, his expression changes. Yes, there’s regret and sorrow, but there’s love there as well, love and angst and emo and devotion and undertones of erotic co-dependency. What price will Dean pay to save the world, and is the price of his beloved Sam too much? I’ve been thinking all along that Dean would say yes, and now here is his chance. I think he’s going to do it and then he does. He says yes. But then everything changes.
I thought this was a marvelous scene, fast paced and interesting and unexpected, in all the best ways. The second Dean says yes, he looks at Sam. And Sam’s looking at Dean with astonishment, as if he’s saying “Don’t say yes, don’t give up!” And then Dean winks at Sam. In addition to the shaky camera (which signals an angel’s approach), I thought for a second that Dean had already been inhabited by Mike. Because, heretofore this, I have never, ever, ever seen Dean wink at Sam, let alone anyone else.
But after Zach does the incantation to summon Mike, Dean carries on in a fairly Deanish manner, and before he says yes, he wants his list of demands met. First up, he’s got a lot of people he wants behind the velvet rope when the apocalypse comes down, and that Zach can do. In fact, he seems like he was expecting it. Then Dean makes the demand that Mike turn Zach into charcoal. Zach thinks this is horribly funny and of course now that he’s got his pension and his benefits and his corner office once more, he highly doubts that he’ll be turned into any such thing.
But Dean’s got the angel killing knife and even though there aren’t any puddles for an angel puddle battle, Dean slices the knife right up through the bottom of Zach’s chin. And while this was a marvelous moment in and of itself, I saw a glowy light in Dean’s eyes. A reflection of hell’s fire burning Zach from the inside? A reflection of Mike inside of Dean? A reflection of Dean’s own pure soul coming to the fore? Or was it just the special effects team gone wild and means nothing at all? Well, I’m the viewer and I get to decide what it meant to me, and I say this: it’s a reflection of Dean’s purity. Your mileage may vary.
The holy light of heaven is coming and the rescue ensues. But while Dean is able to get Sam out of the room, Adam is trapped, and the holy light takes him. Will he, the expendable, half-brother, not quite a Winchester become Mike’s meatsuit? Only time will tell. But the fact that Dean saved Sam first is in keeping with the whole “Dean first, the rest nowhere” idea, because if Dean is first, then he will always insist on keeping Sam close behind him. Or better yet, erotically co-dependently beside him.
Alas poor Adam, we knew him well. Or at least, we knew him for a moment, and I have a feeling his fate will not be pretty. In the meantime, Sam and Dean drive off in the Impala. In the rain. Can you say pale and battered and sweet boys dithering? I knew that you could. Erotically co-dependently dithering, as well. (I really ought to thank Show for that line, I’ve gotten more mileage out of it than I ever thought I could. And, please God, will continue to do so for many weeks to come.)
There’s the half-light of the streetlights and headlights that cast intriguing shadows and flicker in the boys’ eyes, and light up their beautiful mouths and quirky little smiles as they talk. “What changed your mind?” Sam asks. “The damndest thing,” says Dean. “I didn’t want to let you down.” It’s all about big brothers and little brothers, and how while some dynamics never change, others do. Sam has always had faith in Dean, and Dean wants to return the favor of having a little faith in Sam. They are together on the road, but most importantly, they are together and are prepared to screw destiny and make their own fates.
I mean, really. Who filmed this? Who wrote this? Where have they been all season long? At any rate, Show, here’s a beer for you, because in my world, beer means love as well as happiness.
Sylvia Bond is a ten-year technical writing veteran with too many degrees under her belt to count. She lives in Colorado, but does not ski, preferring instead to spend her money and time at the annual Great American Beer Festival, taking road trips across the United States, and reading historical fiction from the comfort of her fluffy green arm chair. She has been involved in fandom since 1993 and been writing fanfic since approximately 1993. What she finds most amazing about fandom (besides the open heartedness of fans and the sheer amount of creativity) is how visible fandom has become. “In my day,” she says, “we had to hide behind P.O. boxes to get fanfic. But nowadays, people wear t-shirts that shout their affiliation and share their shiny toys on the internet.” It’s a wonderful world.
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Sylvia, I have to say, though I always look forward to your reviews, I've never been quite so eager to see one of them as I was this week. I really wanted to see what you had to say, and I wasn't disappointed.
Right off the bat, I have to say that I wasn't terribly impressed with this one. Oh it was good, sure. But it wasn't 100th episode epic, the way it should have been. Not in my opinion. If we think about it, other than Castiel beating the crap out of Dean (and the Deangirl brigade can jump on me all they want, but that was awesome), Adam returning, and Zachariah (or as I prefer to call him, the pompous old windbag) biting the dust, what really happened? Nothing. Dean said yes, but oh, isn't he slick! He took it back at the last second! How is that even possible? If the yes has to be said to Michael himself, why was Zachariah ever involved? Shouldn't Michael have been campaigning for that permission on his own? Way to cheapen the moment, Show. If they'd let that happen, and let Dean actually say yes and mean it, now that would have been epic.
But now he can play the "It wasn't for reals!1!" card, and none of what he did counts. Nevermind that up until that point he was committed to saying yes. It'll either be passed off as all a part of his grand plan to off Zach, or it'll be totally ignored, by Show and fandom alike. Lovely. I guess I kind of got what I wanted; they did rock Dean's pedestal, but damn if they didn't have their fingers crossed behind their backs while they did it.
Not to mention the fact that the very slight mending of the brother's relationship that took place is actually a step backward. After Dark Side of the Moon, there were various discussions about how Dean needed to realize that it was okay for Sam to find joy in things that didn't involve him, that it was okay for Sam to be his own person. Dean didn't seem capable of doing that though. But have Sam slip into that worshipful little brother role again and bam! Dean's all brotherly and faithful again. Because he got what he wanted out of Sam. And the revelation (I use that term VERY loosely) that Sam has faith in Dean, and loves him, wasn't a revelation to anyone BUT Dean. The rest of us already knew that.
And yet again, no one is calling Dean on his crap. He left, did what pretty much all of fandom was already doing for him and justified it by telling Sam that he did the same thing, and seemed pretty satisfied with that reasoning. Sam tells him that it was wrong for him to do it, and logically that means that it was also wrong for Dean. In the panic room, not once, but twice, Dean sits there and hurls crap at Sam, for no other reason than to hurt his brother, and perhaps make himself feel better in the process. I'm not going to judge him too harshly for that; with the possible exception of Mother Teresa, I think we've all done that at one time or another. What I do judge Dean for is the words he chose to use. He could have rehashed the old crap between them, brought up Ruby again, even the stuff in heaven. Instead, as family often does, he aimed for the buttons, hitting Sam where it would hurt the absolute most. Like in When the Levee Breaks, and Dean's ill timed choice to hurl the word monster at Sam, here he takes the chance to remind Sam that he has no faith in Sam, that as far as he's concerned there's exactly zero chance that Sam will hold out against Lucifer, that Satan is going to take Sam over, it's just a matter of time. And of course, he uses this to justify his own decision to give in and say yes, because if he's saddled with such a pathetic, wimp of a brother, he's going to have to be the one to sacrifice himself and say yes to clean up that sorry sad sack of a brother's mess.
And AGAIN, no one calls him on it. When Sam dared to say very similar words to Dean last season, in Sex and Violence, he was pilloried and burned in the court of fandom's opinion. How DARE he say that? When the tables turn though, it's more of an "Eh, he's depressed, cut him some slack" response. And don't even get me started on the "apology" Dean offers up at the end, that isn't so much of an apology as it is an excuse to explain his behavior. Check it out, the words "I'm sorry" never once pass his lips. Maybe I was raised in a more exacting household than I thought, but that wouldn't cut it with my family.
I haven't been much around fandom but didn't Dean admit he was too week in that ep I'd rather forget because of the torture scenes?
On the Head of a Pin?
Didn't he admit to SA that he wasn't up to it, that SA needed to find someone else? Sam got called out for simply repeating Dean's own words?
Apparently I am not done.
Yup, Dean told Castiel to find someone else, that he wasn't strong enough. And yes, Sam got called out for repeating Dean's own words. Of course Sam wasn't in the room when Dean said that in 5×16, since he walked out of the episode long before that in one of his inexplicable disappearing acts. Mind you, I didn't like Sam saying those things to Dean, not at all. But compared to being called a monster, told that you stand no chance of resisting Lucifer, and being told that if he had it to do all over again, your brother would leave you to rot in the panic room, being told you're weak and not strong enough pales in comparison.
But basically, if Sam breathes, someone will take offense to it and dress him down for it. And then a bunch of other someones will chime in and agree. That's just how fandom works, and I'm about to give up hope of it ever changing.
I haven't been much around fandom but didn't Dean admit he was too week in that ep I'd rather forget because of the torture scenes?
On the Head of a Pin?
Didn't he admit to SA that he wasn't up to it, that SA needed to find someone else? Sam got called out for simply repeating Dean's own words?
Apparently I am not done.
"He took it back at the last second! How is that even possible? If the yes has to be said to Michael himself, why was Zachariah ever involved? Shouldn't Michael have been campaigning for that permission on his own?"
I don't understand why Michael isn't able to speak to Dean like Castiel could speak to Jimmy. And why can Dean kill an angel? And how was Dean able to look directly at Zach in angel form without going blind? Maybe we'll find out in future episodes but it doesn't make much sense to me right now.
"But have Sam slip into that worshipful little brother role again and bam! Dean's all brotherly and faithful again. Because he got what he wanted out of Sam."
I think it was just the opposite actually. It seems to me that Sam needed Dean back in the "big-brother" role. Sam has said it throughout the season — he can't do this without Dean. Sam told Dean that he won't be able to resist Lucifer without Dean's support. As soon as Sam knew that he was to be Lucifer's vessel, he called Dean and wanted to be with him again. This was after he already knew that Dean was to be Michael's vessel. Plus, most of last season Sam didn't have faith in Dean, but instead had faith in what Ruby told him (and he didn't even question her about it). And I think Dean appreciated Sam's turnaround here and showing his faith in him.
"Dean sits there and hurls crap at Sam, for no other reason than to hurt his brother, and perhaps make himself feel better in the process."
I think Dean was trying to push everyone away, including Sam. He's curled up upon himself, all sharp edges on the outside to keep everyone away. He stabs Bobby where it hurts ("you're not my father"), he stabs Sam where he's vulnerable ("you'll give in to the devil eventually, just like you did with Ruby"), and he makes Cas doubt his angel-ness ("you're flirting with me like the dirty orgy-loving human you will become if I say NO"). He was resigned to say yes and he knew he had to play dirty. It didn't make Dean feel better about himself at all. I think he felt horrible about everything he was doing. Just like Sam did last season when he was doing what he was doing to kill Lilith.
And I realize people were cheering on Castiel beating up Dean but I guess I don't think he deserved it at all. Now I do think Dean believes he deserved it because he didn't even attempt to fight back. But Dean is trying to do what he thinks is the right thing to do because he doesn't want Lucifer to win or the world to be destroyed. Unfortunately he's seen the horrible future where he said "no" and Lucifer does win, and right now he sees everything leading up to that future despite team free will.
Dean did apologize to Sam in the end. He said "I need to apologize to you." Dean has been trying to treat Sam not like the "little brother" but then you have Bobby (who berated him in last year's finale for NOT acting like the over-protective big brother and running after Sam) and Sam himself, who keeps telling Dean that he won't be able to resist Lucifer without Dean's help. Which I don't understand because why would Sam say yes even if Dean did? And then Sam does it again in the panic room by calling him "big brother" when just plain old "brother" would do. Dean has made many apologies to Sam this season for acting like the big brother but it will required BOTH of them to stop reinforcing that dynamic if they really are to get past it.
It seems to me that one of the points of this episode was to keep Dean in his place (big-brother for Sam, leader of team free will), regardless of the outcome for Dean or for humanity. I hope it doesn't come back to bit them all in the ass.
I agree with you about Dean's motivations once Sam and Cas pulled him back to Bobby's. The tone was very different than the tone in the letter he was writing. In the letter (which I believe was to Sam), we see much the same things Dean told Sam in No Rest for the Wicked.
I also agree that Sam has been asking for Dean's support in his fight against Lucifer and I think only in heaven did he suddenly realize that Dean's been supporting others since he was little and getting very little in return. In 99 Problems we see him playing the I need your help card. I think it was only after this didn't work and he realized Dean could no longer offer support to himself let alone anyone else – that Dean was totally drained that he figured out what was really needed.
Once he realized, he stepped up to the plate and let Dean know that he does believe in him. I think saying it wouldn't have been enough but he also shows his brother he believes by freeing him and taking him along to rescue Adam. That act was the only thing that could have roused Dean from his disbelief in Sam. All last year, Sam showed he didn't believe in his brother, now he not only said it but he backed the words up with deeds.
Of course, he did say big brother but I think he realized a long time ago that Dean does identify and quantify himself by that description. So that didn't bother me so much. However, I do think both boys will have to work at not slipping back into the old childhood dynamic. It isn't usually easy for grown siblings to make the change, it is something they have to work at and it is always all too easy to slip back into the old tried and true methods of childhood.
As to the first part of your comment, I remember in Lazarus Rising that Castiel expected that Dean was one of those special people who could hear his angelic voice. I think Dean should always have been able to, also Sam and Adam as potential vessels. I got the feeling in The Song Remains the Same that Young John had no problem when Michael approached him. I also felt in this episode right at the end the way Adam paused and looked up that he was seeing or hearing something the boys couldn't.
I think it is whatever makes them vessels that allows them to survive the release of the angel's grace when Zach died – because it wasn't only Dean – Sam was also looking right at Zach when it happened. Neither one's eyes were burnt out and we saw Adam looking right up at Michael's grace without his eyes being burnt out. I think the whole point of the before credit scenes were to emphasize this difference. At the same point in that scene both the patron and the bartender's eyes were being destroyed. Adam looking straight up wasn't hurt. The boys looking right at Zach as his grace was released when he died, also were not hurt. I don't know the significance but I do think it is significant.
"I also agree that Sam has been asking for Dean's support in his fight against Lucifer and I think only in heaven did he suddenly realize that Dean's been supporting others since he was little and getting very little in return. In 99 Problems we see him playing the I need your help card. I think it was only after this didn't work and he realized Dean could no longer offer support to himself let alone anyone else – that Dean was totally drained that he figured out what was really needed."
Yes, I totally agree! I think it took what happened in DSOTM especially for Sam to understand Dean's POV about things. I really don't think Dean was hurt so much that Sam's memories didn't include him but more because those particular events actually caused Dean so much pain and that Sam never realized the implications for Dean (like Sam running away for 2 weeks on "Dean's watch") in those actions.
I do think Dean understands that Sam was unhappy with being part of the Winchester family and it's taken him along time to accept that. But I think Sam never really understood how Dean felt by Sam leaving him. And how that always undercut their relationship in Dean's eyes. I'm not blaming Sam here at all. I don't think he was wrong to go to Stanford, so I hope he realizes that. But I think that he finally understood Dean's feelings once he was able to experience these memories WITH Dean.
Again, it's not Sam's fault, but I'm glad that he was able to have the experience he did in DSOTM to come to this understanding. [I also think that those "heaven" memories were manipulated by God... but that's just my speculation.]
RE: Dean/Michael — Now I'm thinking that maybe Dean isn't actually meant to be Michael's vessel after all but rather something else? I don't know, there's so much I don't understand about Dean's role in all of this because he was immune to the Horsemen War and Famine (and Sam wasn't), he was able to act as a "Servant of Heaven" and kill The Whore, and he's able to kill an angel when it was already established that only angels can kill angels. So…. yeah. I don't know!
"I think it was just the opposite actually. It seems to me that Sam needed Dean back in the "big-brother" role. Sam has said it throughout the season — he can't do this without Dean"
I disagree. Sam has been saying that all along, true. But they haven't been on the same page about things, not for a long time. And the main thing that changed from previous episodes to this one, where they seemed to be slightly more in sync, was Sam. He sat down and told Dean that he had faith in him, took all the abuse Dean slung his way, and still trusted Dean, still looked up to him. So Sam slid back into that little brother role, and suddenly Dean was willing to fall back into the big brother role. But Sam made the first move.
"I think Dean was trying to push everyone away, including Sam. He's curled up upon himself, all sharp edges on the outside to keep everyone away."
That's a possibility. I wish he would have realized it wasn't working, instead of continuing to lash out though. It seems like he's been doing a lot of that lately.
"But Dean is trying to do what he thinks is the right thing to do because he doesn't want Lucifer to win or the world to be destroyed."
That's not what Dean said. He said he was tired. That somebody was going to have to clean up Sam's mess once Sam inevitably gave in to Lucifer, and it wasn't going to be Adam, so it had to be him. He wasn't doing the right thing so much as he was giving up. And giving up is never the right thing to do. Not to mention the fact that if he hadn't tricked Castiel and zapped him off to never never land so he could escape and go throw it all away by saying yes, Castiel probably wouldn't have ever gotten mad enough to kick Dean's ass.
"Dean did apologize to Sam in the end. He said "I need to apologize to you." Dean has been trying to treat Sam not like the "little brother" but then you have Bobby (who berated him in last year's finale for NOT acting like the over-protective big brother and running after Sam) and Sam himself, who keeps telling Dean that he won't be able to resist Lucifer without Dean's help."
Dean said "I owe you an apology". Sam said "No, man. No, you don't" and Dean replied with "Just…let me say this…" and went into his speech about being the big brother who had to keep Sam in line. That's not really an apology. He never said I'm sorry. He never apologized. He justified. And there's a big difference between Sam saying he needs Dean (which they both agreed earlier in the season that they keep each other human), and Sam expecting Dean to wipe up after him. An adult can need help from someone, a lot of it, without expecting the person they need that help from to step into anything approaching an elder sibling role. Dean has definitely not been trying not to treat Sam like the little brother. Look back to Fallen Idols, where he was so determined that Sam had no right to call any shots on anything. Look at the way that he jumped all over Sam in Dark Side of the Moon. That was all about family and the way Dean saw it as Sam rejecting his family and his place as the younger brother in it.
"It seems to me that one of the points of this episode was to keep Dean in his place (big-brother for Sam, leader of team free will), regardless of the outcome for Dean or for humanity."
Wow. That's…interesting. Out of the two of them, Dean is the only one who has even a shot at a decent outcome in all of this, IF Michael is telling the truth. Sam is screwed, if Lucifer gets into him, whether Lucifer takes him down, or the angels do it afterward. Sam's only chance at surviving all of this is to keep saying no. Dean's "place" as you call it, which makes him sound more like a naughty dog than the all important character he's been made into, is as the only hope for saving the world. But if you want to see it as Dean being smacked down, rather than exalted, I guess I can't stop you.
"So Sam slid back into that little brother role, and suddenly Dean was willing to fall back into the big brother role. But Sam made the first move."
Right. But it seems to me that Sam needs to be that "little brother" just as much as Dean needs to be that "big brother." And I understand it because it's really difficult to overcome that childhood dynamic, especially since Dean was a parentified child so he was both an older brother *and* a parent figure in their relationship. But I think Sam is the one who gives off conflicting vibes here — he has asked Dean not to treat him like the "little brother" (which Dean understood in FI and apologized for) but then Sam sort of forces Dean back into his assigned role as big-brother/protector every time he tells Dean that HE is the only thing keeping Sam on the right path to saying NO to Lucifer.
And he does it again in this episode in the panic room when he verbally assigns Dean the role of "big brother" yet again. And Sam knows this, especially after DSOTM. Sam knows Dean and he knows that Dean feels his only worth on this earth is as Sam's "big brother" and that's why he specifically identified Dean with that term in the panic room. I LOVE that Sam told Dean that he has faith in him especially after the whole Ruby fiasco of last season, but still… Sam's a smart guy and he did use the puppy eyes on Dean and gave him the Fresh Blood "I need my big-brother" speech yet again.
And that's why Dean's apology in the end was significant. Because even though Dean did change his mind about saying yes, I think he wanted to make it clear to Sam that he does understand that he knows he is also responsible for reverting back to their childhood roles and by continuing to do this it has undermined their adult relationship and partnership. And I hope that Sam understands this too.
And for Sam, I really hope that he makes it clear to Dean that no matter what choice Dean makes regarding Michael, that it won't affect the CHOICE Sam makes to say NO to Lucifer. Sam needs to stop telling Dean that he needs him here in order to say no to Lucifer. In other words, Sam needs to prove to Dean that he doesn't need Dean to be that big-brother/protector that he's always counted on having around. Because in Dean's recent experience (last season), Sam was manipulated by evil because Dean wasn't around. As Sam specifically told him in IKWYDLS — Ruby said the things Dean would have said to him, she saved his life, Ruby became Sam's protector and the person he had faith in (displacing Dean), and that's why he trusted her.
But the stakes are even higher for both of the brothers now and while Sam's decision is really a no-brainer, Dean is faced with the more complicated situation and difficult decision. People are dying and not only that, good people (like those in Blue Earth) are being manipulated to condemn their souls to Hell. So even if the end results in "paradise" those good people, who were manipulated by evil that Dean feels responsible for, will be going to hell instead. Dean has seen The End and it's not pretty. Dean sees that he is changing, he's lost faith, he feels empty and despite all that he's doing, he's becoming future!Dean. And Castiel is changing, getting drunk, losing faith and becoming future!Cas. And Sam… well, what about Sam? Sam keeps telling Dean that he needs his big-brother to keep him from saying yes, but then he tells him he doesn't want to be treated like the little-brother. And I understand his point, but he really does need to make it clear to Dean that even if he ends up saying yes to Michael, that doesn't mean he will say yes to Lucifer because maybe there is some way that Michael can win without Lucifer inhabiting Sam?
Actually in FREASH BLOOD, Sam said " I just want you to be my brother again." He never said BIG. Just thought I would point that out.
"But I think Sam is the one who gives off conflicting vibes here — he has asked Dean not to treat him like the "little brother" (which Dean understood in FI and apologized for) but then Sam sort of forces Dean back into his assigned role as big-brother/protector every time he tells Dean that HE is the only thing keeping Sam on the right path to saying NO to Lucifer."
Perhaps Sam gives off conflicting vibes, though I'm not sure using the "I need you to help me stay strong" card amounts to wanting to be the little brother again as much as it is playing your ace in the hole when you've run out of other options. But thus far, he's the only one who's even attempted to break out of his familial role. And I have to think that if Dean ever wanted to break out of his role, Sam would be accepting of it, something Dean hasn't even attempted until now.
"And he does it again in this episode in the panic room when he verbally assigns Dean the role of "big brother" yet again."
I don't see Sam's words that way, at all. Dean asked why Sam had this huge amount of faith in him, and Sam said it was because Dean is his big brother. That's both answering Dean's question, and stating fact, not assigning roles. Sam never said anything about needing his brother, big or otherwise. In fact, the word need never came out of his mouth. And him stating that his basis for trusting Dean was rooted in Dean's role as his big brother is hardly the same thing as saying "You have to do this because I need you."
"And for Sam, I really hope that he makes it clear to Dean that no matter what choice Dean makes regarding Michael, that it won't affect the CHOICE Sam makes to say NO to Lucifer. Sam needs to stop telling Dean that he needs him here in order to say no to Lucifer. In other words, Sam needs to prove to Dean that he doesn't need Dean to be that big-brother/protector that he's always counted on having around."
I hope Sam does the same. And I hope that Dean realizes that no matter what happens, he has that same responsibility to stand his ground. Dean giving in and saying yes here (because no matter how they meant that take back, I'm not buying that it was part of some huge master plan Dean had to save the day; not after the way he was acting up to that point), was Dean's fault, and Dean's alone. I can't figure out why you want to make it sound like that's all that ever comes out of Sam's mouth, that he needs his brother to save him. If I recall correctly, he said that a scant handful of times (actually I can only come up with once off the top of my head, but that's probably wrong), and in the last episode, when he said that he was trying to get through to Dean about why Dean shouldn't give in. And to me, the point is that, regardless of what tactic he used to accomplish it, at least Sam was holding on, trying to keep them together for BOTH of their sakes, and trying to help Dean, instead of shoving his brother away and trying to commit suicide by angel.
"But thus far, he's the only one who's even attempted to break out of his familial role."
Not true. Dean did just that in Good God, Y'all. He wanted to run after Sam when he got captured by the demons, but then he realized that his job was to protect the people there and not as Sam's protector. He also agree with Sam when Sam wanted to leave the partnership. He didn't argue or fight with Sam. He understood that Sam needed to go and take care of himself. And Dean carried on without him. He continued to hunt and to look for a way to fix what he had broke. I believe that is a perfect example of Dean breaking out of his default familial role. And sure, he totally relapsed in Fallen Idols. Big time. But then he listened to what Sam had to say, he realized he was wrong, he apologized and told Sam he was sorry.
"Sam never said anything about needing his brother, big or otherwise."
Yes, he did. Sam told Dean that he couldn't say yes to Michael because of HIM. Sam: "You can’t do this to ME. I got one thing, one thing, keeping me going. You think you’re the only one white-knuckling it here, Dean? I can’t count on anyone else. I can’t do this alone." Sam has placed the onus of responsibility for him saying no to Lucifer squarely onto Dean's shoulders. According to Sam, Dean can't "do this to HIM." Sam says that he "can't do this alone." So, it seems to me that Sam feels that Dean is responsible for his own future actions and that's not really fair to Dean.
And of course Dean is fully responsible for his own choices and actions. Absolutely, he is and I do think he knows this. But Sam is also responsible for his own actions as well. And I'm not sure if Sam understands this based on his words to Dean in 99 Problems.
"Sam told Dean that he couldn't say yes to Michael because of HIM. Sam: "You can’t do this to ME. I got one thing, one thing, keeping me going. You think you’re the only one white-knuckling it here, Dean? I can’t count on anyone else. I can’t do this alone.""
Sam said that in 99 Problems. You were referring to the conversation in the panic room in this episode, and in this episode, Point of No Return, Sam never even said the word need, to anyone.
"And I'm not sure if Sam understands this based on his words to Dean in 99 Problems. "
Really? After a whole season of the entire world, and Dean, reminding him of every mistake he's made, you honestly don't think Sam understand that he's responsible for his own actions? But you're convinced Dean does? I think you need to be more objective in your study of Dean. And as I said in another comment, we need to agree to disagree. What I'm getting from you is that Dean can do no wrong that cannot be explained by something Sam did first, or something Sam needed him to do, or something Sam wanted from him. Perhaps I'm not getting the whole picture, but that's not a line of thinking I want any part of.
"Dean is faced with the more complicated situation and difficult decision. People are dying and not only that, good people (like those in Blue Earth) are being manipulated to condemn their souls to Hell. So even if the end results in "paradise" those good people, who were manipulated by evil that Dean feels responsible for, will be going to hell instead."
That is a flaw, though an understandable and human one, in Dean's thinking. Those people possess the same free will that Dean does. It's their responsibility to be strong and resist the evil, and theirs alone. They will pay for their own weakness, or be rewarded for their strength, as the case may be. Dean isn't responsible for them. No matter what he does, their blood is not on his hands. That's his martyr complex showing up again. He also has no proof that giving in to Michael will improve those people's lives at all. I can't figure out why Dean trusts any of the angels, with the possible exception of Castiel. He has no proof that they're telling the truth; in fact, he knows they can and have lied. For all he knows, giving in to Michael will end the world just as thoroughly, painfully, and horribly as if things continue the way they are now. Sure, Michael SAYS that's not true, and Michael SAYS he won't leave Dean a broken shell when he's done with him. But at this point, wouldn't Mikey say anything he had to to get Dean to give in?
"Sam keeps telling Dean that he needs his big-brother to keep him from saying yes, but then he tells him he doesn't want to be treated like the little-brother. And I understand his point, but he really does need to make it clear to Dean that even if he ends up saying yes to Michael, that doesn't mean he will say yes to Lucifer because maybe there is some way that Michael can win without Lucifer inhabiting Sam?"
I don't think that's Sam's job to make clear to Dean, that Michael can take over without Sam saying yes to Lucifer. Dean's smart, he should be able to figure that out, and honestly, he shouldn't need everything spelled out for him. It's not Sam's job to sit down and tell Dean each and every thing he thinks and feels, because Dean should be paying enough attention to see those things without being told. God knows he doesn't tell Sam, but Sam still seems to get the point. Sam hasn't told Dean he needs him any more often than Dean has shot Sam down by saying that he doesn't have any faith in him, or doesn't trust him, or can't forgive him, but still, Sam soldiers on. Why can't Dean do the same? Why do you think it's Sam's responsibility to spoon feed every nuance of their relationship to Dean? Dean needs to quit blaming himself for these things that were never in his control, and take responsibility for the relationships he has with people, instead of pushing them away. If Dean is becoming future!Dean, he has himself to blame, not Sam.
"That's not what Dean said. He said he was tired."
Sure, but there's obviously more to it than that. Dean has been "tired" ever since John burdened him with the "save Sam or kill him" mandate and the hits just keep on coming! So yeah, Dean is tired but that's not the reason for his decision. Dean has been shown the future (or one version of it?) where Lucifer wins because Dean said no. Michael tells him that he can't escape his destiny. Joshua tells him that God is out of it, he's not going to interfere despite Dean's prayers for help. People are dying and he can't save them. People are condemning their souls to hell because they're being manipulated by evil and he can't stop it. And in the meantime no other Team Free Will member has come up with another plan.
Dean has never been one to believe in Destiny, but he's at the point where he feels he cannot escape it and by continuing to do so may cost people their lives and more importantly their souls. And that's on Dean.
"That's not really an apology. He never said I'm sorry. He never apologized. He justified."
It's still an apology in my opinion and in SAM'S opinion, it appears. Plus Dean has already told Sam that he is "sorry" for treating him like the little brother, in Fallen Idols. But in this episode, Dean said that he does "owe Sam an apology" and then he explained to Sam why he thought what he did and why that was wrong of him. I think Dean felt that he owed Sam an explanation along with an apology.
I guess if we're going by the exact words "I'm sorry" then I should point out that Sam never told Dean that he was "sorry" or even that he owed Dean an apology for betraying him and choosing Ruby. In Fallen Idols, Sam said: "Dean, one of the reasons I went off with Ruby…was to get away from you. It made me feel strong. Like I wasn't your kid brother." This is an example of Sam explaining his actions, but without the "apology" or "sorry".
Dean though did say he was "sorry" to Sam about the way he treated him last year: "Hey, listen, I was thinking about what you said yesterday. About me keeping too tight of a leash on you. Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal. I'm not saying demon blood was a great way to go, but, you did kill Lilith. Which neither of us saw coming, I mean, who'd have thought killing Lilith would've been a bad thing? Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you. So, for that I'm sorry." This is an example of Dean explaining his actions *and* saying that he is sorry.
It's one of the character traits I love about Dean… as soon as he realizes that he's wrong or that his actions have hurt Sam, he apologizes to him. I mean… he even apologized to Sam in CSPWDT for John making the deal and dying because he was Sam's dad too. Dean apologized to Sam for getting angry about Sam going off to college in Scarecrow, which I think Sam needed to hear. But yeah, Dean isn't the best communicator in the world (/understatement!) but at least he tries and he's willing to admit fault when he realizes he's made mistakes. I do think both brothers appreciate the thought behind the apologies.
Sorry… long comments here today!
"Look at the way that he jumped all over Sam in Dark Side of the Moon. That was all about family and the way Dean saw it as Sam rejecting his family and his place as the younger brother in it."
Yes, I agree. Dean did feel that Sam was rejecting him and he was hurt by it. Sam's open desire for a "normal" family, which he determined the Winchester family was not, is probably always going to be a sore spot for Dean, I think. Sam wanting to "get away" from his family, and from Dean (see: FI) has hurt Dean especially when Dean has fought so hard to keep his family together. One of Dean's flaws is that he has always based his own self-worth on what he does/has done for his family (caring for Sam and Dad). So Dean sees Sam rejecting his family as rejecting HIM (yet again, some more…). Again, this isn't Sam's fault but it does feed into Dean's low self-worth. It's probably one factor in Dean feeling that he is no longer of "worth" to his family but that he could be of worth to humanity if he changes his role from big-brother/team leader to Michael's vessel. Which leads to this…
"Dean's "place" as you call it, which makes him sound more like a naughty dog than the all important character he's been made into, is as the only hope for saving the world. But if you want to see it as Dean being smacked down, rather than exalted, I guess I can't stop you."
Well, Dean was actually mentally and physically "smacked down" in this episode for not conforming to the role others decided he needed to be — Bobby tells Dean that the only reason he doesn't kill himself is because he promised Dean he wouldn't. Castiel tells Dean that he is heaven's outcast and on the run because he did it all for DEAN. And Sam has made it clear to Dean that he needs him, his big brother, in order to say no to Lucifer. So the argument for Dean saying no to Michael is that his team needs him to be DEAN… for THEM. But Dean has to consider the big picture here. And no one has offered any other solution.
So Dean is faced with the dilemma and both sides are working on his flaw of defining his worth by what he can do for others. His team needs him to be the supportive leader but humanity needs him to kill the devil. Both sides need him to play a defined role that fits their needs. Dean has to decide between his team/his family and all of humanity. So yeah… Dean is TIRED.
"Well, Dean was actually mentally and physically "smacked down" in this episode for not conforming to the role others decided he needed to be — Bobby tells Dean that the only reason he doesn't kill himself is because he promised Dean he wouldn't. Castiel tells Dean that he is heaven's outcast and on the run because he did it all for DEAN. And Sam has made it clear to Dean that he needs him, his big brother, in order to say no to Lucifer. So the argument for Dean saying no to Michael is that his team needs him to be DEAN… for THEM. But Dean has to consider the big picture here. And no one has offered any other solution."
Okay. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. We're never going to see eye to eye on, well, anything. I don't know what show you were watching, but if what you took away from this was that Dean was smacked down, and somehow should be pitied because the three closest people in his life tried to show him that they care enough about him to stop him from making a monumental mistake, then it wasn't the same one I saw. Sam never once in this entire episode told Dean that he needed him, or that he would say yes to Lucifer if Dean wasn't around. Not one time. Castiel finally snapped and got tired of watching Dean, who he had put all of his hopes in, throw it all away by giving in. Bobby, well I'm guessing Bobby got tired of the defeatist attitude and the verbal abuse from Dean and that's why he snapped. I'm not really sure. The team didn't want him to give in and say yes because they think there's another way. Not because they can't function without Dean. They think, and I agree, that saying yes to either party, Michael or Lucifer is absolutely, positively, hands down the wrong thing to do. End of story. And THAT is why they didn't want Dean to say yes.
Dean, and Dean alone, is responsible for saying yes. He can't blame it on Sam, or Castiel, or Bobby, or the innocent people who are condemning themselves to hell. It's Dean's choice. He's tired, and that's more than understandable, but it's not good enough. If he gives in, it's his fault. Nobody else's.
"Bobby got tired of the defeatist attitude and the verbal abuse from Dean and that's why he snapped."
Heh. Bobby got tired of Dean's attitude? Well I have to say that's really rich coming from him. He's the one who's barely hanging on because he's in a wheelchair. Lots of people live fully productive lives even though they're in a wheelchair and yet apparently only because he made a promise to Dean to keep going has he not put that bullet in his head yet. And how did Dean "verbally abuse" Bobby? By telling him that he's not Dean's father? Well, he isn't Dean's father, so that's just the facts. And lest we forget Bobby verbally abusing Dean in Lucifer Rising: "You stupid, stupid son of a bitch! Well, boo hoo, I am so sorry your feelings are hurt, princess! Are you under the impression that family's supposed to make you feel good?! Make you an apple pie, maybe? They're supposed to make you miserable! That's why they're family!"
Well, "boo hoo", Bobby. So sorry that Dean pointing out that you aren't actually his father hurt your feelings. Yeah, not really crying too many tears for Bobby these days, I have to admit.
"Sam never once in this entire episode told Dean that he needed him, or that he would say yes to Lucifer if Dean wasn't around. Not one time."
In 99 Problems Sam told Dean exactly that:
SAM: Cause you can’t do this.
DEAN: Actually, I can.
SAM: No you can’t. You can’t do this to me.
SAM: I got one thing, one thing, keeping me going. You think you’re the only one white-knuckling it here, Dean? I can’t count on anyone else. I can’t do this alone.
And I agree with you that Dean and Dean alone is responsible for his own decisions and actions. If he says yes, then he alone is responsible. But it's the same with SAM. Sam and Sam alone is responsible for his own decisions and actions. And he should not have told Dean otherwise in the previous episode. So my point is that now that Dean has apologized to Sam for treating him like the little brother, I do hope that Sam will apologize to Dean for treating him like the big brother who is still responsible for Sam's actions.
"Well I have to say that's really rich coming from him. He's the one who's barely hanging on because he's in a wheelchair. Lots of people live fully productive lives even though they're in a wheelchair and yet apparently only because he made a promise to Dean to keep going has he not put that bullet in his head yet."
I'm not sure where to start here. So I'll be frank. Yes, lots of people do live very productive, totally full lives in wheelchairs, and I admire their strength, and hope I would be able to do the same if I found myself in that situation. But sometimes it takes months,or even years, for a person to make that kind of adjustment. It's a huge mental, physical and emotional upheaval and it's a different thing for each person. So I will not sit and judge anyone, even a fictional character, on how they're adjusting to that. Frankly, I find that a little offensive, to tell someone, again, even a fictional character, that they're not dealing with being handicapped fast enough. I felt that what Bobby said to Dean in that episode was deserved, for all the good it did, but again, it seems that you don't see any difference in telling someone how important they are to you (which is, in my opinion, what Bobby was doing with the suicide thing), and unfairly burdening them with a ridiculous responsibility to do what they want. Two totally different things, in my book.
"In 99 Problems Sam told Dean exactly that: "
If you reread what I wrote, I said that Sam never said that in THIS EPISODE, Point of No Return, the one we're discussing right now. And that is true. The word need never came out of Sam's mouth, not a single time. And I completely disagree with the immature motive you're ascribing that statement to. I don't know how you got "You have to be my big brother, and do everything for me, and be responsible for everything I do" out of what Sam said. In The End, Dean told Sam "I just know we're all we've got. More than that. We keep each other human." Dean was saying they had to stick together, that they needed each other. Not that either of them was responsible for the other, not that it was his job to keep Sam from saying yes or vice versa. That they need to be there for each other, because without that support, they didn't stand a chance of staying resolved. So if you insist on accusing Sam of making Dean responsible for what he's doing, which I still think is NOT what Sam meant, then Dean has done the same. I still maintain that's not what either of them meant. Counting on someone is not the same as asking them to babysit you.
"And he should not have told Dean otherwise in the previous episode."
Show me where Sam ever said that Dean was responsible for what he does. I want to see that quote. Again, counting on someone, saying you need them, that's NOT making them responsible for what you do. Everyone needs backup. Everyone needs support. Reminding someone that they're your only support system is not the same as asking them to be your parent.
"So my point is that now that Dean has apologized to Sam for treating him like the little brother, I do hope that Sam will apologize to Dean for treating him like the big brother who is still responsible for Sam's actions."
How about some proof that Sam ever meant that? That's your interpretation, but as I stated above, that's not the only way to read their interactions. So IF it's established that Sam EVER meant that Dean needed to be responsible for his actions, then yes, he should apologize. But I want that proof first.
"Show me where Sam ever said that Dean was responsible for what he does"
Sure. In Fallen Idols, Sam told Dean that his behavior was responsible for him going off with Ruby:
SAM: "Dean, one of the reasons I went off with Ruby…was to get away from you."
"You" = Dean's actions and behavior. Sam told Dean that he needed to change his behavior ("Before didn't work.") because this led Sam to choose Ruby (the demon who got him addicted to demon blood and convinced him to kill Lilith and break the final seal). And Dean took this to heart I think. Dean admitted this behavior made him blind to what was actually going on with Sam. And he told Sam that he was sorry for that.
As far as "proof" that Sam still believes Dean is responsible for Sam's actions. In my opinion, this:
SAM: "You can’t do this to me. I got one thing, one thing, keeping me going. You think you’re the only one white-knuckling it here, Dean? I can’t count on anyone else. I can’t do this alone."
To me this is Sam telling Dean that his action (saying yes to Michael) will affect Sam's actions (he will no longer be able to keep going). Now perhaps this is just a problem with how it's written because I think a better thing for Sam to say would have been to reiterate Dean's "we need to keep each other human" statement, but that's not how this quote reads to me. YMMV I understand.
"Sure. In Fallen Idols, Sam told Dean that his behavior was responsible for him going off with Ruby:
SAM: "Dean, one of the reasons I went off with Ruby…was to get away from you."
"You" = Dean's actions and behavior."
You've conveniently left out the next part of the script:
DEAN
What?
SAM
It made me feel strong. Like I wasn't your kid brother.
DEAN
Are you saying this is my fault?
SAM
No, it's my fault. All I'm saying is that, if we're gonna do this, we have to do it different, we can't just fall into the same rut.
Don't know how much clear Sam could make it. He didn't blame Dean for it. He said, rightly so, that it was his fault. Not Dean's.
Varying mileage indeed on what Sam said in 99 Problems. Your interpretation of how Sam meant what he said isn't proof for me, sorry. He never once in that statement said that Dean was responsible for keeping him from saying yes, or that if Dean said yes, that he would also say yes. Again, there's a huge difference in supporting each other, and "keeping [each other] going" and saying that Dean is the ONLY thing keeping him from saying yes.
"Don't know how much clear Sam could make it. He didn't blame Dean for it."
IMO, yeah he did. Oh sure, Sam said it was his fault as well, but still, he didn't have to associate DEAN'S behavior with his own choice to go with Ruby in this particular conversation. But if Sam wanted to make it more CLEAR that he didn't blame Dean, he could have just told Dean that he was tired of being treated like the little brother, that the dynamic didn't work for him,and that he needed it to change before in order for their partnership to work. But Sam brought Ruby into a conversation that should have been about the two of them.
Sam told Dean that it wasn't his fault… but still, Dean was one reason he went with Ruby. So in the end, Dean does believe what Sam told him — that his behavior was one of the reasons Sam wanted to get away from him and wanted to be with Ruby. And thus, the apology from Dean to Sam for not recognizing this.
"Again, there's a huge difference in supporting each other, and "keeping [each other] going" and saying that Dean is the ONLY thing keeping him from saying yes. "
Oh, I agree. That's why I feel that Sam is giving off conflicting vibes about his expectations of Dean. And why I thought his specific words to Dean – that he "only has ONE thing" )i.e. Dean) keeping him going – had to be very confusing to Dean.
I do think Dean and Sam had been working rather well together all things considered. They did seem to be on the same page for the most part, but I think what happened in MBV and 99 Problems simultaneously knocked the wind out of Dean but also opened his eyes to the reality of what is happening to innocent people (death and destruction) because of Dean's refusal to say yes to Michael. In the parts deciphered in the letter Dean wrote, we can see that Dean has been thinking about this for awhile and weighed the pros and cons before he made his final decision.
"Oh sure, Sam said it was his fault as well, but still, he didn't have to associate DEAN'S behavior with his own choice to go with Ruby in this particular conversation."
No, he didn't say it was his fault as well. He said it was his fault. End of story. He cited Dean as a reason, but took responsibility for the choice that he made, regardless of the reasons.
"Oh, I agree. That's why I feel that Sam is giving off conflicting vibes about his expectations of Dean. And why I thought his specific words to Dean – that he "only has ONE thing" (i.e. Dean) keeping him going – had to be very confusing to Dean. But yes, JMO."
I get the feeling that if Dean had said the same thing to Sam, you wouldn't think there was a thing confusing or conflicting about that statement. I don't understand exactly what is so confusing about it. Sam said he needed Dean. He didn't say he needed Dean to tell him what to do, or to clean up his mess, or even to keep him from saying yes. He just said he needed him, that Dean was the only thing he had to keep him going (and if he didn't have Dean, what does he have to fight for? That doesn't mean he should, or would say yes, but Dean is the ONLY family Sam has left, I think Sam is allowed to need Dean). That's not confusing. It's not conflicting. It's not mixed signals. It's a simple statement.
I..I'm at a loss here. We're not going to accomplish anything. I'm NEVER going to agree that Dean is being manipulated, or forced to do anything. I don't agree that Dean should be at all confused about how Sam feels about him, or what Sam wants. I feel like we're trying to discuss Dean, but you're continually bringing Sam into the mix to use him, and blaming him, to iron out the parts of Dean's behavior that don't wash. I'm hearing a lot of buts, a lot of justifying, and a lot of Sam blaming. I'm not on board with that kind of thinking or reasoning at all, and we're going in circles. Agree to disagree, that's all we can do.
That's fine. I'll agree to disagree because it seems to me that all you are doing is blaming Dean for everything and I'm just trying to see things from his POV.
For example, you are criticizing Dean here for his APOLOGY to Sam:
"And don't even get me started on the "apology" Dean offers up at the end, that isn't so much of an apology as it is an excuse to explain his behavior. Check it out, the words "I'm sorry" never once pass his lips. Maybe I was raised in a more exacting household than I thought, but that wouldn't cut it with my family."
He actually apologized, and yet for some reason that's not good enough. Yet when I pointed out above that Sam never said he was "sorry" to Dean for the way he behaved toward Dean last season, and even in the Fallen Idols example… Sam doesn't say he's "sorry" for going off with Ruby. He also explains why he behaved how he did. Is that okay if it's Sam but not okay if it's Dean (who, by the way, has told Sam specifically that he was "sorry" about the way he treated him last year).
"I'm hearing a lot of buts, a lot of justifying, and a lot of Sam blaming."
Well I'm hearing a lot of "buts" and "justifying" from you as well, for example:
"but Dean is the ONLY family Sam has left," [So that excuses him for saying that he needs Dean because he's the only thing that keeps him going? And yeah, to me, he means Dean is the only thing keeping him from saying yes to Lucifer.]
And you are blaming Dean for saying yes because of course he thinks the absolute worst in Sam:
"And of course, he uses this to justify his own decision to give in and say yes, because if he's saddled with such a pathetic, wimp of a brother, he's going to have to be the one to sacrifice himself and say yes to clean up that sorry sad sack of a brother's mess."
Oh and it's interesting because I do believe that Sam used the same "justification" when he believed he was the only one strong enough to kill Lilith.
Finally, of course I'm bringing Sam into the discussion because I'm discussion the relationship between Sam and Dean and how they interact. I'm interested in Dean's reactions to Sam and also Sam's reactions to Dean.
Look, I get it. You don't like Dean, that much is clear from reading your posts here. But I do see Dean's POV. I also see Sam's POV but since really not many others here are defending Dean or really trying to understand him, I felt like maybe Dean's POV could be represented here. Apparently I was wrong, so I'll bow out of the discussion now.
Agree to disagree is all we can do. Sam's actions were discussed, and blame placed where it belonged, which was pretty much entirely on Sam, when they happened. Dean's actions are what is relevant to this episode, and story, and this discussion now. And one of the many things that I love about commenting here is that it's one of the few corners of the web where it's okay to talk about Sam, without bashing him, or listing a litany of his faults. If all you want to talk about is Dean, and his POV, there are hundreds, no, thousands, of other websites you can go to and do just that, with people who only want the same thing. Dean's POV is pretty well covered, both by Show and by most fans; I never have to wonder what Dean is thinking, because it'll get shown, just wait five minutes. So you'll have to forgive us for wanting to talk about something else.
Please keep representing Dean's POV on this site. Sylvia is a very fair reviewer and seems to understand both characters. Unfortunately there are some who feel if you say anything good about Dean it makes Sam appear bad.
Even if you comment on Sam's growth of character or his redemption arc, they are angry because they see no need for redemption. After all he was all alone because of Dean's actions.
I saw the scene in the panic room as Dean reiterating what Sam has said to him all season. From the 2nd episode we have seen Sam saying he may not be strong enough to resist. In that episode, Sam wasn't sure if he was strong enough to resist the demon blood and the power it represented.
After Lucifer appears he immediately calls Dean, he needs his help to resist becoming his vessel. In a number of other episodes including the one where Dean made his decision (so very appropriate to consider in the discussion of the panic room scene), we have Sam saying he needs Dean to keep him strong. We saw it in TSRTS when they returned from the past. Dean kept reassuring his brother but he has nothing left anymore.
I also find it interesting that Sam for an entire season 4 says Dean wasn't strong enough and that's why he did what he did. This is justified by Dean wasn't really acting that strong. Dean never actually came out and told Sam he wasn't sure he was strong enough. That's what we've had this season from Sam, comments saying he isn't sure so why shouldn't Dean believe that Sam may not be strong enough.
I hope you continue coming and posting Dean's POV – I used to try but found it difficult to continue circular discussions with no real response other than – quit discussing what led up to this episode and what happened. Some who post here hate their perception of where the show is taking Dean – making him some sort of saint who can do no wrong. I would hate a character like that and don't think that is where the show is going.
What amazes me is the reasons Sam is loved is the reasons we don't see his emotions all over the screen – Sam has always been and will always be a more private and internalized character. It is who Sam was in the first episode and who he continues to be. He is the brother who didn't tell the girl he planned to marry about his past. And I understand why, it wasn't a life he was going to live again. But it was still a lot to keep in the dark.
This was just one of many early examples of Sam keeping things to himself. He didn't tell Dean about his visions of Jessica's death until he absolutely had to and this could have been important about why things happened as they did.
Dean in the first episode let Sam know he didn't want to hunt for their father by himself. In the early episodes we saw him share much more with Sam – we knew where we stood with Dean.
There was no big deal then about Sam's characterization. Later it was a problem because of Sam's actions IMO. Fans didn't approve of his actions and wanted a detailed look at why he did what he did, but like always we didn't get that for Sam – we never have from the pilot episode onward.
What I don't understand is why hate the character of Dean because they have continued to portray him in the same manner as they did early on and why think Sam is getting a raw deal as they have continued to portray him in the same manner as they did in the beginning. Dean is more open, Sam is more private and internal.
"Unfortunately there are some who feel if you say anything good about Dean it makes Sam appear bad.
Even if you comment on Sam's growth of character or his redemption arc, they are angry because they see no need for redemption. After all he was all alone because of Dean's actions. "
I've actually always appreciated your posts, Robijean, especially the insight you gave us last season, about addicts, and their families. I'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle my opinions now, but that's your choice.
Saying "Dean shouldn't have said/done X, but Sam said or did X so therefore it's okay" is not pointing out good things Dean has done and then getting jumped on because of crazy fans who think that makes Sam look bad. I am also almost positive that I personally have never said that Sam didn't need redemption, or that he did nothing wrong. I have said that I didn't, and still don't, trust the show to give him that redemption, but I do believe he needs it. Honestly, I don't care what you, or Lianne7 think of me, my opinions, or people who happen to share them. But I'm not sure why you feel the need to put the other side of things down.
And I can't even enjoy Zachariah finally being out of our hair because how did that happen? How was it even possible? Uriel was QUITE clear in On the Head of a Pin. He said that the only thing that could kill an angel, is another angel. Not the special spikey angel knives they have (though it does seem that most angels need to use those to murder their kin). Not a servant of heaven. Not a righteous man. An angel. And Dean, last I checked, isn't an angel. There's a plot hole big enough to sail the Titanic through. Do they not have continuity supervisors any more? They didn't even try to retcon it by explaining it, or commenting on how Dean was able to do it or anything. Dean wasn't acting very Mike-like in the end of the episode, so I'm relatively (but not completely) sure that there won't be any reveals of that nature in the next episode. And so I'm out of ways to explain it. They painted themselves into a corner with that line of Uriel's, and instead of figuring out how to squirm out of that tight spot, they just didn't bother.
But hey, they made it through at least one episode without playing the "Sam is horrible" card that they've so overused of late, so I guess they get a little credit. And it's the second episode in a row where I actually liked Castiel, so that's good. And even if it was a huge step backwards, they kinda sorta maybe patched up the brotherly bond a shred. So I may stick around til the end of the season. Maybe. We'll see. And never to fear, I am apparently the only person in the world who didn't think this was episode was the awesome sauce to end all awesomeness.
But both Uriel and Zachariah have been proven to lie, to manipulate the truth to get what they want. Did any other angel say that only an angel could kill another angel? (I don't remember). It could be a hole in continuity, or it could be a clever ply from the beginning. (Or it could be both, depending on which writer said it and which writer changed it.)
No, no one else said it. But through the course of the show since then, we've never seen anyone but an angel take out an angel, and nobody, including Castiel questioned that statement of Uriel's. We've seen humans take up the angel killing spike against an angel, but never get a chance to use it. However, them picking it up and wielding it doesn't prove it would work. They would be stupid to not grab the only weapon they have at hand to defend themselves.
If it is a "clever ply" they need to explain it, and fast, because until they do, it's a plot hole. And even if they do, I'm calling retcon, not a deliberate plan. They're just not THAT clever. I think they forgot all about that line of Uriel's (which, with a quick alteration, could have made the same dramatic impact in that episode, AND left the door open for Dean to take out Zachariah; change "another angel" to "servant of heaven" and boom, done deal. So if they were going for clever, that would have worked a lot better, IMO anyway), and either figured we wouldn't notice it, or that we'd be willing to handwave it away.
I am someone who thought it was a lie when Uriel said it and was waiting to see it exposed some day. I never believed that Castiel was that much out of the loop that he didn't know angels could be killed only by angels. And this is after Anna told Sam (before she had her grace) when he asked if there was anything to kill angels that it would be too difficult to get it. Therefore there was something and why say difficult to get if he couldn't use it once he got it. So I never believed Uriel on this.
Plus you may have noticed that Castiel is collecting the angel killing knives every chance he gets. He deliberately threw his down making it available in the warehouse. The boys had it with them in the past and felt they could use it so Castiel never said it wouldn't work for them. When Mary got her hands on the angel knife in The Song Remains the Same she was able to cut and cause a more serious injury to Anna's hand then the crowbar stabbing caused.
To me all these things add up to the angel killing knives working for whoever is using them. They have been guarded through the years and until Castiel rebelled, keeping his and now collecting others, they weren't available for others to use.
But if that's what they meant, they should have qualified it before now. Or explained it in this episode, or given it context or SOMETHING. Anything other than just have Dean suddenly dispatch an angel, and act like it's totally normal.
Also, though Uriel lied about things, he also told the truth about some. So it's possible that was a truthful statement, and until the show chooses to explain it, we won't know for sure. As far as the guys having the angel knife in The Song Remains the Same, I took that as a last ditch effort. Castiel was down for the count (so he really couldn't have told them that the knife wouldn't work), and that knife was one of their only choices for a weapon. And being able to cut someone isn't the same as killing them, not really. I still hold that if they meant that the knives were the key, and not the person wielding them, then they should have said that to start with, or clarified it before now.
Also, if all it took was a super special knife, then the drama of Uriel's reveal in On the Head of a Pin is cheapened, because who was stopping a demon from getting their hands on one of those knives and taking out angels?
Oh I didn't notice that Castiel was collecting knives… interesting!
He had like a gabillion of them and where did they all come from and how did he hide them on his person? It was like they were appearing out of nowhere….
And I forgot to add: If that letter is to Sam, I'm a monkey's uncle. Er, aunt. Someone put up screencaps of it, lightened so we could see some of what was written. Of what we can see of the second paragraph, none of it makes sense if applied to Sam; theory is that it's to Bobby or Castiel at that point. There's some argument that the third paragraph has to be for Sam (which even if it is, gee whiz, a whole three or four sentence paragraph in your brother's suicide note, that's love /sarcasm), but even that can't be conclusively proven.
I think the letter is to Bobby, and what sealed it is the fact that the box was addressed to Bobby. Not to Sam, in care of Bobby. Just to Bobby. And though the whole c/o thing is perhaps a bit outdated, I'm 99.9999% sure Dean knows about it, given that I'm younger than he is, and I remember using it. So yeah, not so much love for Sam there in that scene. Which, why should he, when he's already convinced himself that the entire mess is totally and completely Sam's fault?
I don't think he thinks it's Sam's fault, I just think that he thinks HE's the ONLY one who can fix things. Which, I've been saying for ages, is bubkus. As to the letter, yes, I've seen those screencaps and I was completely baffled by them, and yes, they all seem directed at someone OTHER than Sam. Which pisses me off. Why so much to say to MB and nothing for Sam? It can't be because he doesn't love Sam or want him to know what's going on, but does he actually mean for Sam to find out what happend to Dean through MB? Talk about "hey, you're not good enough for a personal goodbye." Heck, Lisa even got a goodbye and a kiss and STILL no kiss for Sammy!!! Not even an erotically co-dependant kiss, even!!
I'm not so sure I completely agree. The way Dean phrased it "And when Satan takes you over, there's got to be somebody there to fight him, and it ain't gonna be that kid. So, it's got to be me." sure makes it seem like he's justifying his giving in, by saying that it's only because he's gotta clean up Sam's inevitable mess, which seems to imply that he thinks it's Sam's fault, even though Sam hasn't given in yet. But I could be projecting, since I'm so tired of the angst.
It pisses me off too. The main explanation I can come up with is that he did it to be spiteful, just like he took off and left Sam in the lurch last episode. He never once said goodbye to Sam. Wasn't even going to leave Sam with a kind word, just the line about how he'd let Sam rot in the panic room all over again. Wow, that's really nice of you Dean. And so mature too. Clearly SAM is the one who has issues with maturity and truly appreciating his family. It's so obvious. *rolls eyes*
Understood, we don't always agree, but I get your reasoning here. Remember that conversation where we talked about Dean getting pissed for things Sam did that didn't involve Dean? It's all about Dean, right? At least to Dean it is. For Sam, he tends to be more empathic and attempts to see things from the other fellow's point of view. I think that Dean's line at the end of the ep, "I finally realized you weren't my kid brother, like the snot nosed kid I remember" (or however that line went.) was in keeping with Dean understanding that he needed to stop blaming Sam. Which, yes, he's been doing for a very long time and making NO bones about how Sam screwed up, and how the apocolypse is Sam's fault (because even when everyone around Sam was blaming Sam, Dean didn't really stand up for him, which makes him a part of the accusations).
I would really love for that to be true, for Dean to jump off the "It's all Sam's fault" bandwagon (and you're so right, standing there doing nothing while everyone was blaming Sam is no better than hurling the accusations himself; which has always burned me up. The angels can feed Dean all the lines in the world about being a righteous man, which I still don't buy, but he can't ever change the fact that he had just as big a hand in starting the apocalypse as Sam, no matter how he tries to ignore it.) and own up to his own problems, and his own responsibilities, but only if he can do it without being a martyr. That's the problem with him. It seems to swing from "it's all someone else's fault and I have to clean up the mess" to "I'll sacrifice myself to save everyone and clean up this mess" with no middle ground. Like you said, to Dean, it's all about Dean, and how whatever is happening relates to him.
Dean said in 5.01 that "WE made this mess and we need to clean it up."
Dean also said in 5.05 that HE broke the first seal, that he didn't know killing Lilith would bring about the apocalypse either.
And as we see in Sam, Interrupted, Dean feels that it's his responsibility alone. He's shifted the blame onto every other factor except Sam himself… he tells the doctor it wasn't Sam's fault, it was a demon and demon blood. In DSOTM, Dean also tells Joshua that it wasn't Sam's fault because he had good intentions. But for Dean, well he was WEAK and he broke that first seal. And he didn't see what was happening to Sam until it was too late, which he apologized for in FI.
The problem isn't Dean owning up to his own responsibility because as we are shown, Dean certainly has and he's reiterated this to Sam. The problem is Dean not allowing Sam to own up to HIS responsibility in all of this. Dean is focused on the external factors — Ruby, the demon blood, Lilith. I think that Dean is still holding on to the "protect Sam" aspect of his role as big brother. But he needs to allow Sam to accept that HE is ultimately responsible for Ruby, for his addiction to demon blood, and for killing Lilith.
So the next time Dean makes excuses for Sam — it was because of Ruby and demon blood and he didn't realize what he was doing, etc. — that Sam points out to Dean that Ruby and the demon blood were both a result of the choices Sam made of his own free will. Because right now I can see why Dean would think it is all his fault.
Okay, but even IF I agree with that, which I'm not sure I do, that's still Dean's problem, Dean's shortcoming. Sam isn't forcing Dean to see things that way, Sam doesn't seem to see things that way, and no one but Dean seems to see things that way. And I feel like this is the tenth time I've said it, but this all sounds like justifying and handwaving to me. How about we talk about Dean's role in all of this, with out the "but"s and the "but Sam"'s? Again, two wrongs, or two wrongs in thinking, don't make a right. So though Sam's choices and behavior can help us understand Dean's choices and behavior, they don't excuse, or justify those things. End of story.
As I said "the problem is DEAN." Dean needs to stop shifting the blame and making excuses for Sam. He needs to allow Sam to make his own choices and accept responsibility for his own actions.
As far as Dean's role in all of this, well, he broke in hell and broke that first seal. IMO, he's taken responsibility for it. He was in hell because of the choice he made to make the deal for Sam's life. And he admitted this to Sam in NRFTW and he said he was sorry, and that this was all his fault. He has tried to change his big brotherly ways this season, but he's failed at this too. And when he realizes his failure, he apologizes to Sam for it. I think Dean sincerely wants to change but he is struggling with it. He will probably always struggle not to see himself as the big brother and Sam as the little brother. I doubt if he'll ever not feel responsible for protecting Sam, but again, that's HIS problem and one that he needs to work on.
And just because I have a different opinion and point of view doesn't mean that I'm "handwaving" anything. Just because I don't agree with your opinion of Dean and have a different point of view doesn't automatically mean I'm just handwaving Dean's behavior. I'm just stating my own opinion. I believe I'm entitled to do that?
"And just because I have a different opinion and point of view doesn't mean that I'm "handwaving" anything. Just because I don't agree with your opinion of Dean and have a different point of view doesn't automatically mean I'm just handwaving Dean's behavior. I'm just stating my own opinion. I believe I'm entitled to do that?"
Nobody, including myself, said you're not entitled to an opinion, and you know that. But until this comment, you've added a "but Sam" or "Sam did [insert thing here]" to pretty much all the stuff you've said about Dean. That's why I said it was handwaving. Like I said, there are reasons for what both of them have done that involve their brother and their relationship. But those reasons don't excuse, or justify what they did. They both have issues, they both have made mistakes, and will make mistakes again since, thank God, they're both only human.
Dean's been looking out for Sam for years, forever, even, and this is just one more brick in the wall for him. He's the golden child in these parts, and they always get a pass, even if they leave messes and never put down the toilet seat, and never have to lift a finger to do the dishes – the golden child is always the golden child, and it's enfuriating and it pisses me off too. But it makes me love Sam all the more for being level headed enough to put up with it and to attempt to see it objectively. Like he did at the end of Everybody Loves a Clown: "Yes, I'm not okay, but neither are you."
I like that line of thinking, of focusing on what that type of behavior shows about Sam, and how that's good, rather than focusing on how self-centered Dean's thinking is at times. And it again baffles me how anyone could look at the two of them and see Dean objectively, instead of just seeing the sparkly pretty, and still claim that Sam doesn't love his brother. It's unreal.
I think Sam loves Dean more than life itself, because to him Dean is life. And anyone looking, really looking, would see that. Everything that Sam says to Dean, and does in relation to Dean, is about doing what's best for Dean, even if it's to Sam's detriment. Yeah, those are some pretty sweeping statements, but that's how I see it. Remember when Dean sold his sould to save Sam? Sam was ready to go himself, and when Dean was all self-sacrificing about it, Sam said, "I don't want you to worry about me, I want you to worry about YOU!" So if for Dean it's mostly all about Dean? Then for Sam, it's mostly all about Dean…except when, um, Sam goes off to school and leaves Dean (on a full scholarship, that naughty boy!) or sleeps with a demon when he thinks Dean is dead and his world is gone.
Well Sam didn't want to call Dean in Lucifer Rising before his own suicide mission. He left him lying on a floor after he nearly choked the life out of him. He could have written a letter and sent it to Bobby's home or he could have left a message for Dean on John's cell phone that they keep in the glove compartment of the Impala. But Sam did none of those things.
People have deciphered a good portion of the letter and have concluded that the first paragraph is to Bobby, the second is to Castiel ("honorary" Winchester) and the last paragraph is to "Sammy." He packed up his valuable possessions and wrote a heartfelt letter to express his love and appreciation to the people who meant the most to him. That's more than Sam ever did before he went off on his own suicide mission.
I don't recall saying that Sam hadn't screwed up. But I wasn't talking about Sam. I was talking about Dean. Sam's actions don't justify Dean's.
And given the context, both of the way they got Sam into the panic room, and the hurtful words that were flung from both parties in the honeymoon suite that night, I think it's safe to say that if the events in this episode had been reversed, and Dean was going off on his mission alone AFTER Sam tried to stop him, there wouldn't have been a lot of love being expressed, or letters being written then. They were both wrong. You can't make Dean right, by continually pointing out that Sam was wrong first. Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter what order they're committed in.
Actually in the screengrabs I saw, Sam is mentioned in two of the three paragraphs. And I'm not entirely sure that the word honorary was the right place holder in paragraph two – so it doesn't necessarily have to be to Bobby or Castiel. I know a lot of fans want it to be to all three (Bobby, Castiel, and Sam) but I read it as primarily to Sam. Also I never use the in care of anymore but just the name of the homeowner so I wasn't surprised to see it addressed to Bobby.
What I did find interesting and wondered what it meant was that the package was addressed to Robert Singer – Dean knows the town knows him as Bobby, he has always called him Bobby so why address it to Robert. Was he disillusioned with his so-called surrogate dad since the dead zombie wife incident that he didn't feel the same about him and couldn't even address it to Bobby. Or was he just brought up to use proper names when using the US mail? Glad to see the Dad taught him proper respect for the postal system.(g)
Okay, I looked again, but I only see one mention of Sam, the "Sammy" in paragraph three. Where do you see it used again?
And whether honorary is the right word before Winchester or not, it still doesn't point to that line being directed to Sam. First of all, the last word in the sentence before that word that might be honorary is "an" so that limits what the next word can be. And no matter what that word is, Sam doesn't need to be told that he's any kind of Winchester in Dean's book; Sam is as much of a Winchester as Dean is. So that line has to be meant for someone else, either Bobby or Castiel. Plus the line before that about taking more for the team, that doesn't seem like something Dean would say to Sam at all. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because the absolute most of that letter that I can read as being for Sam is the last paragraph, and that's a little iffy still.
And for that matter, he could have dispensed with the in care of, and addressed the package to Sam at Bobby's address, IF he'd ever intended for the contents to go to Sam. So again, agree to disagree, but I see very little, almost no, proof that Dean was intending for Sam to see that box or letter.
Which makes me wonder, why no goodbye for Sam? Lisa gets one, Bobby gets one, who knows who else was mentioned in the letter, they all get one. Sam gets bubkus. No kiss, no nod, no goodbye hug, nada. So why? Because Dean knew that Sam would find him anyhow? It seemed like Dean didn't bother with hiding his tracks, as Sam says, "It was easy to see where you were going on your farewell tour." I liked saying that Sam had bloodhound in his veins, but really, to figure out what Dean's up to must have been like child's play for him. And maybe Dean knew that?
Actually the line in paragraph one *taught us better than that* – I attribute that paragraph to Sam since I would imagine he was saying Dad – in paragraph two where everyone else thinks it is an (honorary) Winchester I took it to mean (extraordinary) mainly because I can't see Dean asking anyone else to take care of Lisa and/or Ben (or the Impala possibly and where it was parked is another interpretation) The last paragraph is definitely for Sam and I interpreted the one line as saying one Winchester lost to this is enough. That line was saying let me go, I took this one for the team, you get on with things once it is over.
The first paragraph said to me that he wasn't sure the letter would ever reach his brother. If he is planning to say yes immediately there is always that chance.
To me the whole letter was for Sam and it was Dean telling his brother the same kind of things he told his brother at the end of No Rest for the Wicked. Dad taught us – take care of my car – get on with your life – let me go and don't keep the circle of endless sacrifice going. So many things stand out in this letter that make me think he is saying the same kind of good-bye to his brother now as he did then.
You must have a much clearer screencap than I've seen. The most I've been able to get out of that first paragraph is the last line, that appears to say "We've run out of it". Everything else is so blurry that it's impossible to tell what it says. And no offense, but extraordinary Winchester doesn't really make sense. Dean doesn't think Sam has done anything worth praising lately; he made that abundantly clear later one. I don't think Dean thinks Sam has taken any great hits for the team either. So the taken more for the team line being intended for Sam doesn't gel for me. And the her referenced in the second paragraph had better be the Impala. Lisa doesn't deserve the attention she's already gotten, and she sure as hell doesn't belong in Dean's suicide note. One week of very bendy sex and a maybe!baby does NOT an enduring and meaningful relationship make.
Like I said, we're gonna have to agree to disagree, because until someone unfolds that letter to show a Sam (or Sammy) at the top, I'm not buying that any more than the last paragraph is intended for Sam, and maybe not even that. There's as much, or more evidence pointing to the letter being intended for someone else than there is to support it being for Sam, and given Dean's behavior later on, and the hostile way he treated Sam in this episode, I find it VERY hard to believe he was writing a loving goodbye note to Sam in that motel room. Actually, I find it nearly impossible to believe.
If you go to Supernatural Wiki they have not the screen cap but the made out words. I did see a very good screen cap the other day but can't find the url now.
I agree I was reaching on the extraordinary and I do believe it was the Impala – I think the line was probably I left the car in Cicero. Where I'm going we don't need one. and then on to the taking care of her bit. So yeah, probably the Impala and I can't believe he decided to give it to someone else other than Sam this time around especially since he didn't act to pleased with Bobby after the dead zombie wife episode and in this one.
Here's what has been deciphered:
……………….A…., I'LL BE SURPRISED IF
……………….. YOU. BUT IF IT DOES
………. KNOW THAT WHAT I'M DOING ISN'T
………………GHT US BETTER THAN THAT
…………….WE'VE RUN OUT OF IT.
………… CICERO. WHERE I'M GOING, WE DON'T
……….. KNOW YOU'LL LOOK AFTER HER FOR
ME. BOBBY – YOU'VE TAKEN MORE FOR THE TEAM
THAN ANYONE COULD EVER ASK. THAT MAKES YOU AN
HONORARY WINCHESTER IN MY BOOK.
..M. YOU TOLD ME ONCE THAT YOU PRAY……..
NOT SURE IF THAT'S STILL TRUE. PRO……..
BUT IF IT IS, GIVE IT ONE LAST TRY………
SAMMY — ONE WINCHESTER LOST……………
ENOUGH. WHEN IT'S OVER……………
Clearly the last paragraph is to Sam… "you told me once you pray…". I really don't understand why you would think Dean wouldn't include words to Sam in this goodbye letter. Clearly you and I are watching very different shows. Dean LOVES Sam (as Sam loves Dean). This entire series is built on that love.
Considering that before writing this letter, Dean took off without a word of goodbye for Sam, to hare off to Indiana to say goodbye to a girl he had a week long affair with, and then boxed up his prize possessions and put them in a box addressed to Bobby, I don't think I'm completely witless for questioning Sam's inclusion in the letter. I never said Dean didn't love Sam, though I think he has a very funny way of showing it of late. The entire series is built on that love, from BOTH of them, you're right. And Kripke has spent the last season and three quarters tearing that love apart.
I'm with you on this one. The way the letter is written, and the structure of the sentences, Sam is referred to, rather than being addressed. I think the letter was meant for Bobby and had information that Bobby needed to know and perhaps an explanation to Bobby about Sam, why he feels that doing what he's about to do is better for Sam. Perhaps the sentence is "This will protect Sammy – one Winchester lost is enough…" But nothing TO Sammy, nothing FOR Sammy.
I still think there's tons of love between the brothers, more than thay have for anyone else. And sometimes, with that kind of love, there are no words. Not excusing Dean here, just trying to understand.
It's so unfair that we don't get to know what is REALLY in that letter! Perhaps as an extra feature in the Season 5 DVDs? Or in the season 5 companion? One can hope.
Oooooh, that is such a great idea!
Actually this is how I translated paragraph 3 and it is very in keeping with how others I've seen also translated it.
Sam. You told me once that you pray, I'm not sure if that's still true. Probably not, but if it is, give it one last try. Pray for me, Sammy. Don't give in, one Winchester lost is enough. When this is over get on with your life.
I think this is very much in keeping with what we heard from Dean in No Rest for the Wicked. I know many think paragraph 2 is for Castiel but I am not so sure – why would Castiel need the Impala and I think he is referring to that rather than Lisa. If it is Lisa I could understand asking someone with angel mojo to make sure she and her son are alright.
What I'm trying to say is Sam did get addressed in this letter and it was a very emotional message. Remember in HotH and in ITGP, SW we had discussions about Sam's praying and loss of belief. That's why I think he asked him if he still prayed. He saw his loss of faith, but didn't know if he stopped praying, re-started praying. The last paragraph was definitely addressed to and was for Sam.
I'd be interested to know how much of that was in the screen grab and how much was the person's own interpretation of the words. I never saw Bobby in any of the grabs I've seen. I'd love to see a really high quality grab. Most of the ones I've seen haven't been that good. Only one wasn't fuzzy.
Do you have a reading of just the words that appeared in the grab without the added interpretation of the person posting.
I copied it from comments in this post:
http://smilla02.livejournal.com/205956.html
The letter ihas 3 paragraphs, the first is to Castiel, second to Bobby, and last one to Sam. You can see a transcript of the words that were able to be deciphered on SuperWiki for that episode.
I don't think you're alone in finding plotholes, or taking umbrage at what Dean's been getting away with. And you're right, it's not fair, and I appreciate when you come and lay it out for me. I totally ran out of words this time, and went way over in fact…but it did cross my mind about the angel knives. Where did they all come from? And where were they hidden? They reminded me of the concept of the magical sword pocket on Highlander, which was, from the beginning, part of the whole concept, that these guys could hide huge swords on their person. But Dean's jacket, was it big enough? And how can he kill an angel if he's not one. Like you said, they made that pretty clear with Uriel, so….is Dean an angel now? If he's Mike's meatsuit at the moment, then the answer is yes. If he's not a meatsuit, then how did he manage to kill Zach?
Hee, well, if I'm not alone, there's a LOT of silent people out there, because until today, in these comments, I haven't seen anyone call Dean out on anything. They've justified and excused and handwaved and swept it all under the rug. It's the "Dean can do no wrong" game version 2.0.
Exactly! Where did they come from? Why are there so many of them? How was one in Dean's jacket and how did Zachariah NOT know about it? And whether Uriel lied about other things or not, we have exactly NO reason to believe he lied about that, until now. And frankly, I'm much more willing to call plot hole than to give the writers that kind of credit. Especially since they didn't even try to explain it in the episode. Fail.
I have to be honest – I almost never call Dean out on anything. Hee. But that's because 1) I'm so totally focused on Sam, I have very little attention leftover for anyone else on the show, and 2) because I prefer to be more about analyzing and enjoying the show than being frowny and judgey at the characters.
I long ago (Buffy fandom) decided that being all angry on behalf of fictional characters is a waste of my energy.
Ha! Fair enough. But for me personally, if I'm going to get involved enough in a show to care for the characters the way I USED to care for the ones in this show, I'm involved enough to get angry. And it's not as much anger with Dean, though that's there too, it's more anger with Dean's fans, the majority of which seem to think the man shits gold bricks and farts Febreeze, and that he can do no wrong that can not be justified, ever.
Yeah, those tunnel-vision Deangirls are annoying – I generally try to avoid them.
The "my favorite character is a saint and can do no wrong" fan can be found in many fandoms and is annoying in every flavor.
Sam was a jackass in season four! (Obligatory favorite character criticism.)
I didn't think Sam when he was Sam was a jackass in season four. He did make mistakes while Dean was gone that led to him losing himself.
Only when he was really into the demon blood addiction did he start acting like someone else (and a bit jackassery). I felt a lot of fans didn't give the addiction enough credit for some of the horrible things he said and did. I have seen a beloved son change into some one I could hardly recognize while addicted.
I think Sam still doesn't allow himself the luxury of blaming the addiction. I think at one time Dean knew perfectly well it was the addiction but the events at the end of When the Levee Breaks made him doubt that conviction.
The only thing I had a real problem with Sam was how from day one he put so much faith in Ruby and what she told him. Even in season 3, he believed her – he felt he was using her but he did believe she could save Dean. I think this was a precursor to the Sam we saw in season 4. In season 3, he desperately wanted to believe Dean could be saved – so he trusted someone he never would have before (the last act of a desperate man). In season 4, he continued to trust Ruby because to do otherwise would mean he should never have trusted her before Dean died. And if he shouldn't have trusted her, he wasted time, and maybe he could have saved his brother.
I saw Sam continuing to trust Ruby because he had to believe he hadn't failed his brother by trusting her in the first place. A misplaced sense of guilt for Dean's death that makes no sense but a grieving person often makes no sense. When he can't get Dean back, he alleviates that guilt by returning to the position of trusting Ruby who says she can get vengeance for him against Lilith.
I think Sam was a very understandable character in season 4 and felt his bad behavior easily explainable by the addiction. I can blame him for getting addicted but there is no way I can judge him as a bad person or brother to Dean on his addiction fueled behavior.
I hope this made sense to you – it did in my head when I started.
Hi Robijean,
Thank you for writing out such a thoughtful response. Me saying Sam was a jackass was really just a quip to show I could criticize my favorite character.
My thoughts on him in season four are actually much more nuanced than "jackass" and I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't attribute as much of the bad behavior to the addiction though, or actually, based on what Ruby says, I can't attribute it directly to the demon blood. I can see the bad behavior as part of a period of mental illness, though, in which Sam really went down the wrong path emotionally when Dean died and then for various reasons didn't have a clear head to see his way back.
So you're criticizing Dean because his fans and not because of his actual actions on the show? Both Dean and Sam have made mistakes along the way. I don't think it's right to be harsh with the character just because you don't like his fans though.
Um, not sure where you got that from. Reread what I said. I said that the anger was there with Dean. And it is. My frustrations and anger also encompass Dean's fans that are bound and determined to justify and handwave everything he does, no matter what it is. These are the same fans that spent all of last season, and this one, criticizing every breath Sam has taken or takes. It's a multi-layered problem.
Well said, Whiskey. Fandom has soured my love for this show in a huge way. I think if I ever fall in love with a TV show as I did with Supernatural, I will have learned my lesson and will stay away from the fandom's intolerable hypocrisy and bias. Having said that, as much as it broke my heart how much Sam's story was shoved aside to make way for the great mainpain that is Dean's alone, it really is ironic now to say that I am glad that TPTB did that. If focusing on a character to the point of making him the most disturbingly self-centered, self-pitying, whiny, annoying, hypocritical a** then I am gald they stayed away from Sam. And to think of how much love I use to have for Dean. Sigh …
Like you, I'm reminded of Highlander every time Castiel whips out his handy dandy angel killing knife. At least the trench coat might make a good hiding place. Up the sleeve of Dean's jacket not so much. I guess the angel killing knives occupy another plane when not in use just like the immortal's swords must have.
I just re-watched the episode with a family member and Castiel collected 2 angel knives from the angels he killed while rescuing Adam. I think this means they can be used by more than angels but then I always thought Uriel was full of it when he said otherwise. In Heaven and Hell, Anna insinuated to Sam there was something they could use but it would be difficult to get. So either Anna was lying in that episode or Uriel was stating a false fact in On the Head of a Pin. I think it is the latter. Castiel believed that angels could die at the hands of another so he, like Anna, felt the angel sword could work for others (humans and/or demons).
I sometimes think Uriel said what he did to make Castiel feel even more guilt at having Dean torture Alistair by pointing out there was really no need since only angels could kill angels. At the end of On the Head of a Pin, I didn't believe Uriel since it argued with previous points brought out.
I remember fans stretching to claim the dead angels mentioned in Episode 2 in the season were the same angels being referred to in this late season episode. They felt there was a plot hole there they needed to plug because they bought into Uriel's statement even though it outright contradicted Anna's statement to Sam in Heaven and Hell.
As you know, I was a wee bit disappointed with the last two episodes…but this one TOTALLY rocked and changed everything. Which is worthy of the 100th episode.
I guess that things had to get very, very dark before the situation could take a turn for the better. And what a better! The forces of Team Free Will are gathering, and those demons and angels had better watch out!
Can I say it again? I loved this episode. I need to watch it again, in fact. Right now.
Yeah, you can say it. As many times as you need. Enjoy your repeated watchings! : D
Yeah, you can say it. As many times as you need. Enjoy your repeated watchings! : D
The first thing I did when I sat down to my computer this morning was look for your review. I haven't read more than the first paragraph or so but was glad to see you loved the episode. I too was happy with the direction they decided to take. Now off to read the whole review even tho it will mean I'm a few minutes late to work.
Oh, no! Don't be late to work. : D
Only a half hour late – so I'll work late. It was totally worth it. I loved the review. Thanks for the great start to my day.
You are very much welcome, and thank you for the compliment.
I've been reading for a while but never commented before, but I wanted to chime in. I liked the episode, but so many things open so many plot holes. First, I was rewatching Sympathy for the Devil. The angels lost Michael's sword and couldn't find it, then suddenly they know it's Dean? Why? What tipped them off? More importantly, what kept him hidden from them? Then, Dean can kill and angel and look into that searing glowy light and not have his eyes liquify? Buh? Is Dean suddenly super special more so that just being Michael's meat suit. I mean, initally we were told that "the righteous man who begins it is the only one who ends it" then he wouldn't need to have Michael around at all, cause then it wouldn't be Dean ending anything, it would be Michael. Oh, I could go on and on, but I won't because it makes me not like the good parts of the show as much as I did.
I'm finding that in spite of my particular love for this ep (which has a lot to do with Dean's comment to MB about him not being Dean's father) I am finding the comments describing plot holes that I never even noticed! It doesn't make me love the ep any less, but it sure is interesting to see what I missed, while my eyes were glazing over with the pretty.
There are so many things to point out, not least of which, like you say, is Dean's sudden super powers, and his ability to kill angels. I have no idea how to explain that, none at all. I'm thinking that the angels knew that Michael's sword was Dean because God told them? Or maybe Joshua?
That's why I've never bought what the angels are selling. Dean is supposed to end it not Michael, therefore, becoming Michael's vessel isn't the right way to end it. Now Dean just has to figure out the right way and do it with Sam's help.
I've been saying that for ages, that to save the world, Sam and Dean have to act in tandem, without outside help. (Aka, the Soap Angel, MB, and all the angels and demons…and other annoying, secondary characters)
So much better when our boys are together. Now I can bask in their loveliness without wanting to kick Dean's butt (Thank you Cas for doing that for me).
I somehow think there's more to the whole wink scene. May be Michael is in Dean and it doesn't always have to be dramatic possession for the angels to take on their vessels. May be it's not Dean anymore but Michael in him now trying to work his way through with Sam to keep him from saying yes to Lucifer…because killing Lucifer in his current meatsuit is a whole lot easier I guess. haha I sound stupid to myself, but hey…the show does do such odd stuff!
Thank you for this comment. My friend in Alaska was sure the wink meant nothing, but hey, Dean's never winked before, so why now? It was a very specific wink, directed at Sam, and Dean had that little "gosh I have all the power in the world but don't need to use it" smile on his face. And Sam was totally freaked out by it, because that's not something Dean does. Dean also had the same demeanor as when Mike used John as his meatsuit. Sort of calm and placid because Mike doesn't need to throw his weight around, right?
It seemed kind of odd for it not to be Mike, at that moment.
Actually, off the top of my head (and with some help from a friend on remembering), Dean did wink at least one other time. In Folsom Prison Blues, when he got into the first fist fight with the guy who got killed by the ghost later, Dean turned around before the first punch was thrown and winked at Sam, along with a big, shit eating grin.
But that wasn't a sly, subtle wink like the one in this episode. It was big and cheesy, in a good way (though on rewatch, all I can hear in my head as Dean does it is George Lopez saying "I GOT DIS!"). So it was different. And it doesn't invalidate what you said, I just wanted to point out the difference in the gesture when Dean has done it before (and my memory is insisting that he did it one other time too, but I could be wrong) and this time.
Yes, and thank you. I remember that wink now, and it was totally different than this one. As was the smile this time around. So I'm thinking that Show might be laying it out in case they can't quite figure out which way to go yet….they can retcon it to their heart's content at a later date.
"I GOT DIS!" Oh, you make me laugh, cause now I can hear him saying it that way too!
Can't believe we are discussing all the wink scenes! No wonder show likes to mess with it's fans! I bet Kripke & Co stop here for their tuesday morning coffee breaks as well
1) Dean said yes. How could you say yes and then say yes, but, and put a whole lot of conditions in place? Surely the conditions should be in place before you say yes.
2) Zach had called down Michael. And since when did Mike need Zach to call him down with any incantation? The last time, yea verily, Mike came when he wanted to, which seems to be in keeping with the whole archangel thing.
3) So, now, now that Dean's said yes, and now that Zach has called Mike down, whose to say that Mike isn't in Dean?
It's creeping me out! Show has done this before, remember when John was possessed by the YED? Show didn't reveal this for ages.
whatever it is, I am in for the ride…all the way through
Thanks for every tuesday morning review that I enjoy with my cup of coffee
You're more than welcome. I'm having coffee myself, enjoying reading all the comments.
PS…I think we better buckle up, cause it's going to be a bumpy ride!
Since Zach kept questioning whether Dean actually meant it, I think it only means something when Dean says it to Michael. I think Zach felt it was a trick to get Michael there, but for what purpose he thought is beyond me.
The boys (all three) are still hidden from Michael, so he wouldn't necessarily know that Dean has arrived. Also Michael comes down when he wants, this time he is being signaled it is time to come down.
I don't think Michael is in Dean. I also felt that Adam, unlike Sam and Dean, was seeing more in the light than they ever did – he reminded me of Young John's face looking up at the light in The Song Remains the Same. It was looking up into the light that delayed his exit. I think that means something. I think, when he realized the boys left, Michael asked permission of Adam – Adam realizing Dean couldn't rescue him said yes. (I'm not sure how I would feel about this – it would enable us to see Michael with the boys again – maybe the next time with Sam alive and hearing what's said.)
I think whatever it is, that we won't find out until one of the last two episodes. It is going to be a delayed reveal once again.
I'm growing old waiting for these reveals! It's spring, besides! We should all be outside!!! But the boys are too pretty, and your points are very valid. Something weird/bad will happen to Adam because he cannot be allowed to live out the season, as dictated by the law of conservation of characters.
Actually if you look close, Dean also winked at Castiel when he was standing outside the panic room. It is with the eye farthest from camera so it is hard to catch. I don't know what it was supposed to signify unless it was to show how relieved he was to have made the decision to say yes and not have doubts clouding his mind. Although why he would be so light-hearted when he appeared so down I can't imagine. So the first wink bewilders me still.
The later wink to Sam IMO was a way of quietly signaling his brother that he had changed his mind. He didn't want Sam down there doubting him until he actually took action. He wanted his brother on the same page and expecting him to act. So when he acted, Sam would be ready if needed.
Dean winked at Cas earlier after the "last person who looked at me like that got laid" line
Love it and I so totally agree, this episode was fine but it was after all a re-make of When the Levee Breaks and comparing to that episode, this one was not even close.
I knew the moment they put Dean in the Panic room that he would escape. Zachariah basically told what would happen in the scene with Adam. I prefer being shown instead of being told. When the Levee was great in that aspect, this one not so much.
And I am having major problems with Dean at this moment. Looking back we were told that Dean took care of Sam when he was little. What I am now seeing, and have since the first half of Season two is that Dean is incapable of handling his own emotional troubles, like stated in Sam. Interrupted – he pushed everything back and muddles through.
I think that's a lie. Sam has been there ffor him throughout, listening to him and asking fornothing ike in the last scene. Dean spills his beans and Sam listens.
My question, among amillion others about Sam, is where din sam get this emotinal maturilty? Iäve seen him muddle through Jessica's death in season one, angy and revengeful, yes, but I can't remember but Dean telling him anything but that he needed to move on. And Sam did. Likewie in season 2, Sm was there for Dean when John died. Not once was there a scene when Dean was addressing Sa,'s grief other on the road where Dean angrily dug into Sam and John's relationship and basically told Sam it was too little, too late.
Then season 3, a line and Sam's emotional state about the deal was dealt with.
This is the theme of the series and it kind of throw a dark light on Dean for me. I don't believe Dean any more. I don't believe he ever took care of Sam the way he syas he did because there is nothing being shown about that care-taking. He may have provided food on the table and that is good, but that is not really raising anybody.
This episode highlights it perfectly. The difference between Dean and Sam in handling his brother's crisis is jarring. Sam was there, sitting in the room and waiting for Dean to wake up after he got beaten up. Then he asks Dean to come along, showing faith in his brother. No conditions to be met like Dean's conditions in Levee.
I'm troubled that we haven't been shown from where Sam has gotten all this strength? He is incredibly strong in the face of failure. Is that what his family taught him? That he was alone in failure and only loved if adhering to rules set for his role? He acted that way in this episode; he was strong but put himself in the seemingly weaker spot by telling Dean that he was always wrong for running away, seemingly even Stanford. And in the panic room he confirms: “You're still my big brother.” And it worked. Sam does have to deny everything he is, except Dean's little brother. That saddens me enormously
And I don't know but to me this doesn't make Dean seem the good brother we know he is. On the contrary, it makes him seems stagnated and unable to relate. His storyline is doing Dean no favors when you look beyond the visual evidence and juxtapose it to the subtext of the family dynamic.
Too long this thing ssays?
tbc…
I'm rambly today. You inspire me!
Be ever so rambly, there's so much to talk about when Show has so many things going on. Especially this ep, which, love it or hate it, had stuff happening. We're getting closer to finding out why, what, when, where and who.
As for where Sam has gotten the strength to do all the brotherly support stuff, I think he's had it all along. When Dean's not around, he either rises to the occasion (and saves the town) or he sinks to the bottom of depravity. He's mixed up in his own way, but I think that when either brother is really down, the other one is there. This time, Dean's at the bottom of his barrel, so Sam is helping him scrape up the right stuff to get the job done. Or, rather, to leave the job undone by Dean, so that Dean and Sam can do it together. You ever know the kind of story where the harum scarum youngster rises to the occasion, grace under pressure, to do the right thing? I think that's what's happened here. Sam is Dean's shield, and Dean is the sword, though I wish I could say I thought of that on my own, but I read it somewhere.
The thing that makes me giggle is the multiple Christ-references with Sam. It was really obvious in the last couple of episodes. The cross on his shirt in the end scenes DSOTM, how he forgave his father in TSRTS and how Dean has denied him at this point, starting with Levee. In 99 Problems there was this huge confession at the bar about him still believing even if God didn't give a damn.
So yeah, he is the Phoenix rising which pretty much is our Christ myth. I hope the show is going somewhere with it but because it's Sam, I'm not so sure. Though it is made so very clear I have a hard time figuring out why putting all this imagery there if it won't lead anywhere?
Dean too has his 40 years in misery analogy but I haven't seen that many analogies to him as I see to Sam. I hope they will be together when they stop the Apocalypse. Any other way and it will be a let down.
I like your take on Christ-Sam. I have doubts too about this leading somewhere because it's Sam, you know. But since they treated him as more than wallpaper in Point of no Return, I regained some hope. Technically, Dean saved the day, but only because Sam saved Dean first.
As for those references you mentioned, there's a big one scheduled to happen in the next episodes: Sam vs Lucifer. As you know, Christ was tempted by the Devil.
Wow! I didn't know that. Yes, in retrospect, with all the righteous men, Pharisees, condemning Christ, and everybody blaming Sam. it does make sense.
I hold a little hope, but not that much.
I like all of these Christ-Sam thoughts, but I'm with you in not having much more than a shred of hope that Show has even considered going in that direction. If by some miracle they did though, that would be pretty damn awesome, and it would possibly make up for some of the Guest Towel Sam crap they've pulled.
I've actually thought all along, as many other have, that the way the angels have chosen to go about persuading Dean was very odd. First they tried brute force, then something of an appeal to his pride (which, as one of the seven deadly sins, really has no place in angelic dealings), then resorting to trickery and traps. Honestly, at this point, Lucifer looks a whole lot more angelic than the supposed angels, other than Castiel, do. Which is probably the point. Luci's learned that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and he's using that to his advantage.
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence, and he said to him, "All these I shall give to you, if you will prostrate yourself and worship me." (Matthew, chapter 4)
I don’t know what the hell (pun intended) is going to happen in Detroit, but Lucifer is pretty sure that Sam is going to say YES. Maybe he’ll play with Sam’s so-called lust for power? He also mentioned – in Free to Be You and Me –things that Sam has done and that he still has to do. Let’s see how our Darling Little Sammy copes with all of this.
cont
This is why I can't tell if show intended to show me anything at all with Dean's face fully visible and Sam's partly hidden from the viewer. It made me think back to Levee and Sam's “You don't know me,” but I doubt show is going anywhere with that textually. Show relies far too much on tell instead of show these days and yeah, it's all about Dean's feelings and his needs.
I loved this episode because of the brother scenes but somehow I felt it was rather wasted since I've seen most of this before and I knew that four episodes from the end, there was no way Dean would say yes.
Sadly, Dean's story is very repetitive right now and it can't quite hold my interest like it used to. In fact, I think they have done an even greater disservice for the character of Dean. With his constant misery he's becoing a one note character, an icon. We have been waltzing around the Michael issue since the beginning, heard the talks and explanations of why this has to happen. At this point I feel numb to it. I hate that they are making me feel the same about Dean. He doesn't act his age any more, he has the world-view of a three year old (no self-insight whatsoever) and no understanding about anyone else. They've made him a hypocrite, egomaniac martyr and I am supposed to feel sorry for him? It's working the other way for me right now. The ending scene felt like the same speech as in Fallen Idols, I didn't buy it this time either. There's been the same depression for seasons already and the one-liners are getting pretty old. I wish they would give Jensen something better that the eternal wash rinse angst cycle. I so wish for some real character growth for Dean. That would give Jensen something to tackle!
Uh, I think I'm done now?
Don't be done. Don't ever be done. This is marvelous stuff that I'm still mulling over. I love your insights as to why Sam is in darkness in their conversations in the Panic Room and why Dean is brightly lit. I tend to want to read into moments like that, but truly, whether it's a happy accident, or done on purpose? Only Show knows for sure. And seriously, the wash, rinse, angst cycle comment? Brilliant, because yeah, they're not pushing Ackles as much as they could; he could do this all in his sleep.
I'm with Sylvia. Some excellent points in here, particularly the last bits about Dean.
And can I say how much I love that I'm not the only wordy one this week! That is awesome!
Veronica I do agree with your comments about Dean and his angst its be done to death and to be honest boring and it isnt doing Dean any favours any more.It is hard to keep feeling for a character when the writers clearly are manipulating every chance they get since Season 2 instead of letting the audience make their own minds up about the brothers like the adults we are. I think the problem is Dean is on this roundabout of ''his'' feelings that the writers put him on aand it comes across has never ending . The biggest travisty of this show is the fact they have had a equally wonderful brother to explore but came up with he internalizes as a excuse to fail Sam. I personally dont think this story overall has been told very well and personally I dont like bias or favouritism showing to one character when you have two leads it becomes unsavoury and unsatisifying to watch.
This episode I enjoyed and felt the writers did actually write for Sam instead of Sam for Dean or Sam for the plot so in that I will acknowledge them for that. The plot holes are part and parcel of Supernatural nower days so I take them with a pinch of salt and not let them annoy me .But where it is becoming crucial is despite the writers policy to treat Sam in the background or hide his sl with some poor reason he seems to be the one moving forward while poor Dean is stuck like a record , he isnt the only one who had a crap life or crap happen to him so has Sam I wish he would realize that and also realize that his brother loves him .
Yes, it's the manipulating that throws me off too. Sometimes I feel they are just dangling Dean front and center to make him seem more shiny. It's not fair to the character at all.
I have no idea why the writers took this road but it's fair to both Dean and Sam.
I do think Dean knows Sam loves him, but I don't know if he really knows what love is about at this point. I do think he has somewhat skewed ideas about the concept. Dean still has a lot to learn and i so hope to see the day where dean sees that Dam's love runs deeper than he ever imagined. Then he can stop being so hung up about Sam choosing a demon over him and see the reason why he made the choice to begin with. To me it was out of love for Dean since he understandably didn't want his brother nowhere near Lilith at the time. Sam is very practical in that sense.
I’m with Whiskey that Dean sorely needed those punches Castiel gave him. He was being a very nasty boy. It’s like when we discipline a dear child for its own good. But before I get beaten myself by the deangirls, I’ve got to say that I’m so proud because in the end he set his self-pity issues aside and rose to the occasion, showing once more to be the man we all know he is. Exactly like Sam knew all along he would. I hope that emo/angst state is gone for the remainder of the season.
What I liked about this episode: Sammy. The boy has grown up, there’s no doubt. It’s about time Dean noticed it. I loved it how he took leadership and I particularly loved to see him playing the role of big brother for a change – not only to Adam but to Dean as well. It was refreshing and very sexy. And speaking of Adam, I’m very curious about what happened with him. Thoughts, anyone?
What I didn’t like: Dean’s confessing that he wanted to say yes because he had to be the one to fight Lucifer in Sam’s meat suit. Excuse me? Did he realize that he would probably have to kill Sam in the process? Was he OK with that?
All in all, I loved this episode. The mending of the relationship is not yet secured, I guess, but considering the bitter flavour left by the last episodes, I’m in heaven with this one.
I think Adam got zapped by the angels to become the meatsuit for Mike. Except that's what I thought at the time, now that I read spnfangirl's response, I'm thinking that Dean is Mike's meatsuit and Adam is dead…
You know what? Did you notice how Sam-like Dean was in the scene where he got his ass kicked? It reminded me of how Sam has taken punches over and over. And SA has turned very Dean-like lately. I took that scene to indicate that it was really what Dean wanted to do to Sam, deep inside. Dean's mostly very passive-aggressive when it comes to Sam, it's been off the charts this season. I think he wants to beat the crap out of him because he resents Sam being stronger on occasions.
The just taking it was so unlike Dean!
That scene contributed to me not entirely believing Dean in the last scene. The moment Sam takes the reigns, Dean will come down on him hard.
I took that statement as he'd rather be the one to kill his brother than have Adam be the one to do it. I also think it goes back to that stupid promise he made both his father and Sam in Season 2. If Sam is going to die as Lucifer, than he'll honor the promise he made him and do it himself.
Dean says he expects Sam to say yes to Lucifer. I wasn't surprised because this entire season since he found out, Sam has said he wasn't sure he was strong enough. I kept telling Dean he couldn't do it without him. Well, Dean doesn't have it in him to keep himself going, let alone help Sam. In the last episode we had Sam tell Dean he wasn't the only one white-knuckling it.
So Dean can't see any progress on the saving everyone front and he starts considering the second option. I'm sure he's hoping that if he says yes, Michael will act against Lucifer immediately. He's hoping that Sam will never get that chance to say yes if his strength to say no gives out.
However, he is prepared to act against Sam, if he says yes before Michael wastes Lucifer. I think Sam in the equation is why he held out on the second option as long as he did. It was only the realization that delaying was sending more souls to hell that made him finally decide he could delay no longer.
What he said to Sam was hurtful but honest to his present mind frame. He told Sam in the first episode of the season it would take a lot to get past what had happened. They haven't exactly had that chance yet.
I think God knew how down Dean was becoming and manipulated Sam's heaven. Not as a lesson to Dean, but as a chance for Sam to see the inner workings of Dean's mind. Sam needed to reach that realization, he came back from heaven with a different perspective on his brother.
Sam has always had faith in Dean (except under the influence of Demon blood) but in the past he chose to express it in a kid brother to big brother way – I need you to make me strong. He still did it in 99 Problems but he was working his way in that one to what we saw in this episode. Sam realized that Dean couldn't be strong for him anymore – he's been being strong for people his whole life (re scene with his mom in heaven). Dean needed to have someone say, I believe in you. Only by knowing someone else believed in him, was he able to believe in himself again. I loved beyond belief that it was Sam who showed that faith and neither Bobby or Castiel.
Oooh…I like this take on events. And it is VERY difficult for siblings to change how they see each other as adults…especially if kids grow up close in age.
I don't know about anyone else, but every time I go home and spend a holiday weekend with the entire family as an adult…almost 90% of the time, all the siblings fall back into their teenage patterns. It's hard to break away from all those years of behavioral conditioning. And really, Sam and Dean are still pretty young, and have been under stress since they *were* teenagers. Four years apart, then they're thrust back into their old roles, AND had added stress piled on and on and on. It's no wonder they haven't matured much beyond the "I'm the big brother, I'm in charge" and the "You're just like Dad, but you know this life better than I do" mentalities. They haven't had TIME.
I wanted to smack Sam over the head too at that instance. But I did remember the Pin thing and I realized that Sam does know his brother. The word came out all wrong and in the worst time possible, but Sam knows. I thought that was meant to be apparent as Dean went on with that he didn't now when Sam changed and seemed to have no idea who this adult Sam is.
I got the same reaction in the end scene of this episode. Dean needed to control his snotty little brother? Keep him on the straight and narrow? Huh? Credit card frauds anyone? And who came to get whom when dad disappeared? Because someone didn't ant to do it on his own? Does not make sense at all.
Mind you, I have been waiting fo the fall.out of Sam's "You don't know me" and the altered voice-mail too but that seems to be water under the bridge.
Sam was sold out by his own Mom, that, if anything is crappy!
Yes, the most interesting story is in the background? That's just stupid and I am fairly sure I will watch this season to the end but next season has to be spectacularly Sam-filled for me to even bother.
This was intended for Whiskey and the Head of a pin discussion. I fail at this!
Phenomenal episode, and your review matched perfectly, Syl. Your comment about a governess made me think about Victoria Winters in DARK SHADOWS, weird flashback, huh?
Sorry, though, Syl, but Bobby's pulling out the gun and bullet and reminding Dean that he had promised him he wouldn't give up made me cry. I just burst into tears. I think Jim Beaver is a wonderful actor and I wish you felt the same. Bobby is wonderful, and while he will never be a father to the brothers, he's a father-uncle figure. I accept that and love Bobby for it.
As for Castiel, did you notice that Dean just LET the angel beat him up? Didn't even put up a hand to defend himself? He felt he deserved Cas' beating and took it, even wanted Cas to finish him off, it seemed. But Cas couldn't do it. He loves Dean, in his own angelic way, and the feeling is returned. Castiel is just really disappointed that Dean, his hero, is backing out on Team Free Will.
Sam was the hero of this episode, and he stepped up to the plate with magnificence. God, I was proud of him! He stayed calm, cool, and even when Dean hurt him about as badly as he possibly could, he didn't hit him or run off in anger, he stuck around, showed his faith in his big brother and Dean came through! I was jumping up and down, screaming, crying, acting like a complete loon when Dean stuck that knife into Zachariah! I'll miss the bad old angel, though, he sure provided all the best lines and comic relief in this ep! I guess the baddie now is going to be the Big Bad–Lucifer!
The final scene in the car, right after Dean made his speech about how Sam's faith in him as a big brother ignited Dean's faith, there was this cool music riff, drums, maybe. Sam is smiling, agreeing that they're going to do it their way.
It was a perfect 100th episode as far as I'm concerned. The brothers talked and HEARD each other, Cas made what appears to be a huge sacrifice (but I'm sure we'll see him again), Adam will probably be seen again, but under what circumstances, Bobby is hanging in there, and Sam and Dean are solidly back as a team, shaky, maybe, but determined to go in with free will intact!
HAPPY 100 EPISODES, SUPERNATURAL!
Robin Vogel, Editor, SUPERNATURAL,http://www.moogi.com
Phenomenal episode, and your review matched perfectly, Syl. Your comment about a governess made me think about Victoria Winters in DARK SHADOWS, weird flashback, huh?
Sorry, though, Syl, but Bobby's pulling out the gun and bullet and reminding Dean that he had promised him he wouldn't give up made me cry. I just burst into tears. I think Jim Beaver is a wonderful actor and I wish you felt the same. Bobby is wonderful, and while he will never be a father to the brothers, he's a father-uncle figure. I accept that and love Bobby for it.
As for Castiel, did you notice that Dean just LET the angel beat him up? Didn't even put up a hand to defend himself? He felt he deserved Cas' beating and took it, even wanted Cas to finish him off, it seemed. But Cas couldn't do it. He loves Dean, in his own angelic way, and the feeling is returned. Castiel is just really disappointed that Dean, his hero, is backing out on Team Free Will.
Sam was the hero of this episode, and he stepped up to the plate with magnificence. God, I was proud of him! He stayed calm, cool, and even when Dean hurt him about as badly as he possibly could, he didn't hit him or run off in anger, he stuck around, showed his faith in his big brother and Dean came through! I was jumping up and down, screaming, crying, acting like a complete loon when Dean stuck that knife into Zachariah! I'll miss the bad old angel, though, he sure provided all the best lines and comic relief in this ep! I guess the baddie now is going to be the Big Bad–Lucifer!
The final scene in the car, right after Dean made his speech about how Sam's faith in him as a big brother ignited Dean's faith, there was this cool music riff, drums, maybe. Sam is smiling, agreeing that they're going to do it their way.
It was a perfect 100th episode as far as I'm concerned. The brothers talked and HEARD each other, Cas made what appears to be a huge sacrifice (but I'm sure we'll see him again), Adam will probably be seen again, but under what circumstances, Bobby is hanging in there, and Sam and Dean are solidly back as a team, shaky, maybe, but determined to go in with free will intact!
HAPPY 100 EPISODES, SUPERNATURAL!
Robin Vogel, Editor, SUPERNATURAL,http://www.moogi.com
I like the way you describe it, that Sam and Dean are going to do it their way, which I agree with 100% And it's about time that the boys discovered that their biggest ally is each other! Not Bobby, not any angel, not some guy they met in a bar. Just them, Sam and Dean. That's what's going to save us all.
Eventually.
Oh, yes, the governess! She was a terrific character, until the writers forgot how smart she was, and how observant, and then made her stupid!
And when did I ever say that Beaver wasn't a good actor? Never, that's when. What I said was, I dislike the character, and why did show give this actor such clunky lines? So very often, they make Bobby act out of character, and what's Beaver supposed to do but deliver what Show asks of him? Still, I didn't cry, and don't cry at any of MB's woes or concerns. Especially not lately. Where are those zombies when you need them! As for the Soap Angel loving Dean, angels are incapable of anything but adoring God, that's what makes angels. So I'm thinking the Soap Angel has feelings for Dean, as much as an angel can, but not love. Love is reserved for humans. As is free will. Which begs the question, under what pressure is the Soap Angel acting, since he himself can't experience free will? (So many questions, so little time!)
Favorite line: “You’re still my big brother”. It’s amazing how so much can be said with just a few words. Favorite moment: the wordless dialogue between the boys behind Zach’s back with the wink sealing it. I might be wrong, but I saw nothing in that wink but broterly love and understanding. To me, it translated like: “You’re right, I’m your big brother, and I’ll never fail you”. Actually, I like this purely human explanation much better than the notion that Michael is somehow involved.
Mmmm, I don't want to backtrack myself, but yes, you have a point, it could be all very ordinary and brotherly. But when does Dean ever wink at Sam, like this? When has he ever? That's what gets me. It seemed out of the ordinary, and thus, perhaps, angelic in nature. : D
Sylvia, maybe you're right and Dean was really "touched by an angel". But honestly, I think the wink was a sign of reassurance to Sam that his big brother was back. It was the way Dean found to convey this meaning. It was like he was telling Sam a secret. It's the first time ever that he did so, but hopefully it won't be the last, don't you agree? It was SO cute.
By the way, don't get me wrong, I'm blissful with the current state of things between them. But I hope the fact that Sam is not a snot-nosed kid anymore doesn't mean the end of "Sammy". Dean calling Sam Sammy is canon and I refuse to let the "Sammy" go, no matter if Sam is 6'4 or what.
Sylvia, I love your reviews.. This was an awesome episode.. MB being "like a dad" to the boys, always bothered me as well. I love the character,but the Show seemed to negate JW. No one could replace him, but I think Dean in his need for family,needed someone to rely on.. Dean may feel a stronger relationship to Bobby than Sam does.
As for our need to see Dean get beat up from time to time, I think it's because we'd like to do it especially when he berates himself.
I hope the remander of the season continues to provide riviting episodes..
Thank you for your lovely comments, and agreeing with me so strongly about The Dad being, indeed, THE Dad to Dean and to Sam. For so long, they treated this character like he was disposable, esp with comments like Dean would make about family and fathers. We know how important all this is to Dean. As cool as MB is for a lot of fans, he is never The Dad and never will be, to either boy. I thougth it was bold of Show to say something like this and I hope they stick with it. And like you, I hope the remainder of eps for this season are just as engaging!
Sylvia, I agree with you and morganslady, no one could ever replace The Dad. I am trying to remember the first time Dean said that to Bobby and am wondering if it wasn't one of those times he was trying to make someone else feel better. I know he considered Bobby like family but I always saw it as avuncular and wonder which writer decided to take it the other way. I know the writers do write Dean's relationship with The Dad differently and to me one of those less inclined to write it favorably probably started the whole *Bobby like a dad* trope.
I'm just glad this episode put paid to it and hope against hope we don't see Dean apologizing for that comment. And I hope we never see him negate it by restating the *like dad* comments again.
If anything to me MB has developed all the negative qualities of Dean's father. I haven't really liked him since the great scene in AHBL2 in the junkyard when he chastised him about his deal. Since then MB has been more and more a Mary Sue character and after his contrary positions on the same issue in WtLB and Lucifer Rising a plot contrivance more often than not. I've been totally out of love with the character since Yellow Fever.
Linked here from LJ. I enjoyed this review. I thought the episode was good but not great. It just didn't seem to move much of the overall storyline forward, to me. And even though I'm glad Zach is dead and gone, I will really miss Kurt Fuller, who was so wonderful in the part!
I agree with you about Bobby and Dean being right to state the hard truth about him not being his father. I do love Jim but I never thought Bobby should be the boy's father figure. Dean knew what he had to do here and it was painful for him, although quite frankly Bobby did pull on gun on them a few episodes ago so I don’t feel bad for him at all.
But as far as Dean goes, I think he would have rather stabbed himself instead of lashing out at all the people who cared about him, but he feels he has to say yes to Michael before it's too late (as it was in The End). But he knows he's letting the team down. That’s why he didn’t fight in the panic room or why he didn’t fight back against Cas. He’s better at beating himself up than anyone else. But nobody else on team free will is offering up another option. Dean feels it’s his responsibility to sacrifice because he broke the first seal in hell.
I love the angst and the emo in this one although I'm not quite sure what they accomplished in the end? I don't understand how Dean was able to kill Zach or how he was able to look directly at him without his eyes getting burned out? I don't understand why Michael can't just speak to Dean directly like we saw Castiel speak directly to his vessel Jimmy. Hopefully there will be answers!
I’m glad that Sam was there for Dean and was finally was able to tell Dean that he has faith in him. I think that after last season it's something Dean needed to hear from him. And also that Dean was able to believe in himself in the end. I think both boys took a big step in admitting some of the things they have been wrong about in the past. I know there is probably more heartache to come but I do think they have taken a step forward in their relationship. I think, as sappy as it sounds, their love will be the key to defeating Lucifer.
Thank you for again for the lovely review!
Hey, thanks, and you're welcome! I'm glad you liked it, and thank you for coming by to add to the fun.
Zach was horrible, but Fuller? He was fabulous in the role. I believed in every moment of Zach's horribleness. Kudos for bringing that up, because I don't think anyone has yet. Usually when a great secondary charcter dies, (and all the great secondary characters die eventually), we have a moment of silence, or at the very least a nod to their contribution. Like Hendrickson, and Ellen and Jo, and Gordon, and that great doctor from the zombie episode.
Hey Sylvia — I just want to say thanks again. I did go back and read some of your other reviews and they are great as well. Your site was linked on the "bi-bro" area of supernatural.tv as "non-biased" so that's why I was really interested in reading your reviews.
But I guess my POV is really in the minority here though, LOL. Ah well.
Anyway, thanks again.
Oh and I really miss Hendrickson too! I loved that guy.
MB and Dean might have been close, but like you said, you don't pull a gun on family members. Except when you're a Winchester you do, right? But MB isn't a Winchester, never has been and never will be. I always felt that the references to that relationship were forced intimacy. Plus they never included Sam! And Sam never agreed.
I hadn't thought about why Dean wasn't fighting back or was so defeated in the Panic Room. I just put it down to him being tired, rather than beating himself up. Becauase seriosly, there are so many angels and demons lining up to do that for him. Even his old pal the Soap Angel, though, to be fair, I didn't blame the Soap Angel for getting pissed. I guess angels do have tempers, after all.
Actually Castiel beating on Dean brought back his angelness to me. He has never had a time when he was without faith – there was first God, then Dean. He is lost, feeling strong emotions (perhaps for the first time). He doesn't know how to deal and as a warrior angel his first reaction was the beat down. It was only when he had a second to realize Dean had nothing left and wasn't fighting him that he stopped.
I wonder how the knowledge that Dean in the end didn't accept Michael will affect him. Will it restore his faith in 2010 Dean? Or is he already on the path to the Castiel who had no faith in 2014 Dean in The End. That Castiel may have stayed at Dean's side through a sense of loyalty but he no longer had much respect or faith in him.
"I wonder how the knowledge that Dean in the end didn't accept Michael will affect him. Will it restore his faith in 2010 Dean? Or is he already on the path to the Castiel who had no faith in 2014 Dean in The End."
It's a very good question. I think the events of the The End really affected Dean and weigh heavily on his mind still. It has to be totally freaky to see YOURSELF in the future and then to know that all of these horrible things happened because you said no to Michael… I don't know. To me it seems that no matter what he does, he loses. And of course Lucifer called it already… "I win. So, I win."
Lots of people are agreeing with you, and me too, how could Dean have killed an angel, if he's not an angel? Like Whiskey pointed out, either they forgot they said only angels could kill angels, or they lied, either way, we can drive a truck through that particular plot hole. Though I don't think Dean's glowy eyes were accidential, I think they meant something! Only time will tell what that is.
Personally I think Sam has been telling Dean he has faith in him since…since forever. At the beginning of Season 3 (Fresh Blood, I think) Sam and Dean have a very heartfelt conversation about how Sam has looked up to Dean all his life and has wanted to be just like his big brother. If that's not faith, I don't know what is. It's just that THIS time, Dean heard Sam, and rose to the occasion. IMO. : D
I think a major part of it this time is that Sam didn't just tell – he acted on the telling. He said I believe in you and no matter how crazy everyone thinks I am, even you, I'm releasing you and taking you with me. I know you will do the right thing even if you don't believe it.
I think that strong demonstration of faith was something Dean needed. With his lack of self-esteem I think it was always difficult for him to see any reason why someone should have the kind of faith in him Sam said he did.
I saw a difference in Sam (or the way Jared played Sam) in this scene to the way he has in other scenes where he proclaimed his faith in his big brother. He was much more understated, less emotional, just a calm statement of fact followed by the act of releasing Dean. It really resonated with me as a viewer and I think it was meant to – we were meant to see this was a stronger, more confident, less desperate Sam. So many of the other times, like Fresh Blood, when he was worried about Dean (going to hell and being suicidal before the fact), the desperation showed through and I would think that would have an impact on how much credence Dean put in what he said.
Dean should have realized his brother had faith in him and I think he was beginning to before the deal. He got a lot of flack in Season 3 about his behavior and in Season 4 I don't think Sam did have much faith in him. He loved him but thought him weak – and he voiced that opinion. In the first episode of this season, Dean said it would take a lot to get past that. There hasn't been much chance for them to work on their relationship.
The last 3 (4 if you count MBV in it's proper order) episodes have shown Sam making great strides in so many areas – finally we are seeing what we were promised for the character. I think his acknowledgement and requesting being locked down because of Famine's induced hunger for demon blood was something we wouldn't have seen in the past. Sam would have felt he was strong enough to fight the desire on his own. He knows better now and he acted on that knowledge.
I've loved the growth we've seen in his character and I loved how this growth allowed him to stop Dean's downward spiral. Sam tried to save Dean from hell and failed, it has weighed on him ever since. Well now he has succeeded in saving Dean from another kind of hell – the guilt of saying yes and being responsible for the death of half the planet.
Quite the accomplishment and they gave it to Sam – not Bobby, not Castiel, not even Dean himself coming to his senses – no it was Sam his brother – the only one who's belief in him really matters. I was so thankful when it played out that way. I know a lot of fans weren't happy about it being all about Sam but to me it has always been all about the other brother with these two and I was glad to see it again.
My fervent hope is that it will also be all about Sam and Dean for the remaining four episodes. I think the two of them working together is going to be the solution and I don't want to see either one doing it on his own or with the help of others.
"My fervent hope is that it will also be all about Sam and Dean for the remaining four episodes. I think the two of them working together is going to be the solution and I don't want to see either one doing it on his own or with the help of others. " Amen to that, to every single word! I couldn't have said it better myself. I can't understand why fans are unhappy about this, I really can't. Of course it had to be about Sam, as everything to Sam is about Dean. Who or what else would it be about?
"I’m glad that Sam was there for Dean and was finally was able to tell Dean that he has faith in him. I think that after last season it's something Dean needed to hear from him."
I'm not so sure the failure in communication on that level was a lack of telling, so much as a lack of listening, or believing. Like Sylvia pointed out, that's not the first speech Sam has made about looking up to his big brother, and he's shown his faith in Dean plenty of other times (one that comes to mind, way back in the first season was when Sam immediately sided with Dean, when Dean insisted that John was possessed). But Dean either couldn't, or wouldn't, see it for what it was. He needed to not just hear it, and not just see it, he needed a rather epic example of it. Maybe now that he's gotten that epic example he'll be able to accept the multitude of more subtle ways that Sam expresses his love and faith. And in all honestly Dean came within a hairsbreadth of betraying that faith. Maybe he needed to test it, and see if it would hold.
Maybe he did have to test it, but that doesn't excuse how long it took him to get to the point where he actually believes Sam!! Right? Right!
Amen, Sylvia! I'm with you 110% on that one.
Love it and I so totally agree, this episode was fine but it was after all a re-make of When the Levee Breaks and comparing to that episode, this one was not even close.
I knew the moment they put Dean in the Panic room that he would escape. Zachariah basically told what would happen in the scene with Adam. I prefer being shown instead of being told. When the Levee was great in that aspect, this one not so much.
And I am having major problems with Dean at this moment. Looking back we were told that Dean took care of Sam when he was little. What I am now seeing, and have since the first half of Season two is that Dean is incapable of handling his own emotional troubles, like stated in Sam. Interrupted – he pushed everything back and muddles through.
I think that's a lie. Sam has been there ffor him throughout, listening to him and asking fornothing ike in the last scene. Dean spills his beans and Sam listens.
My question, among amillion others about Sam, is where din sam get this emotinal maturilty? Iäve seen him muddle through Jessica's death in season one, angy and revengeful, yes, but I can't remember but Dean telling him anything but that he needed to move on. And Sam did. Likewie in season 2, Sm was there for Dean when John died. Not once was there a scene when Dean was addressing Sa,'s grief other on the road where Dean angrily dug into Sam and John's relationship and basically told Sam it was too little, too late.
Then season 3, a line and Sam's emotional state about the deal was dealt with.
This is the theme of the series and it kind of throw a dark light on Dean for me. I don't believe Dean any more. I don't believe he ever took care of Sam the way he syas he did because there is nothing being shown about that care-taking. He may have provided food on the table and that is good, but that is not really raising anybody.
This episode highlights it perfectly. The difference between Dean and Sam in handling his brother's crisis is jarring. Sam was there, sitting in the room and waiting for Dean to wake up after he got beaten up. Then he asks Dean to come along, showing faith in his brother. No conditions to be met like Dean's conditions in Levee.
I'm troubled that we haven't been shown from where Sam has gotten all this strength? He is incredibly strong in the face of failure. Is that what his family taught him? That he was alone in failure and only loved if adhering to rules set for his role? He acted that way in this episode; he was strong but put himself in the seemingly weaker spot by telling Dean that he was always wrong for running away, seemingly even Stanford. And in the panic room he confirms: “You're still my big brother.” And it worked. Sam does have to deny everything he is, except Dean's little brother. That saddens me enormously
And I don't know but to me this doesn't make Dean seem the good brother we know he is. On the contrary, it makes him seems stagnated and unable to relate. His storyline is doing Dean no favors when you look beyond the visual evidence and juxtapose it to the subtext of the family dynamic.
Too long this thing ssays?
tbc…
I'm rambly today. You inspire me!
This show has done a massive disservice for the character of Sam and it's only Jared's impressive acting that has saved him. I came into the show and thought Jensen did a better job. Jared was good, yes but I thought Jensen was better. In retrospect I realize how wrong I was to think so. For Jared to take this character through so many changes in the background, many without one single defining moment to explain th whys and hows, but instead fleetingly short scenes without a word spoken, he still keeps Sam so incredibly layered and speaks directly to my heart. I am amazed at this young actor's talent. Dean gets the monologues and the story up front and I have still lost some of the connection I had with the character in the first seasons. Jared has made Sam worm his way into my from the background, without defining scenes. I want to slap him on numerous occasions, I want to kick him in the shin and scream at him but I still get him. That alone is some formidable acting and I can understand that the character isn't as liked as Dean is since both the character and his story are so much more subtle. His character is very rare on television and so is the amount of talent I am seeing in that young man. I never expected to love Sam the way I do and I attribute that to Jared's portrayal of a very complex character
Jensen is very, very good and drop dead gorgeous but I have come to understand that Jared must have something very special to create such a character in the background. His acting is so understated and effective that it creeps under your skin thanks to almost imperceptible visual cues. First time I realized this was in or Under a Bad Sign. I realized Jared had given me all these small signs that he was indeed possessed and was indeed Meg That's very masterful and rare on TV.
Same thing in this episode. There is no big gestures and still you just can feel how close Sam is to breaking and how hard he fights to get through to his brothers.
That first scene in the Panic room almost killed me. Sam takes it and you can see how much it hurts and how sad he is. His eyes dwell with tears of sadness, regret and even beginning anger which he so clearly represses to regain his composure. The way he turned his head partially away from Dean to not let him see all that went through his mind was very telling of their relationship. It may look like it's all about Sam on the surface but Dean is the one who has an emotional crutch in Sam. Sam's ever had that in anybody, least of all when he really needed one like last season.
I adored Jared in that scene because he conveyed so much with so little. The way his voice broke and how he kept turning his face away from Dean to spare himself and shield his brother from his own emotional turmoil was just as effective as his words. To me it also drove home how utterly lonely Sam is in all this. He was told to shut up and muddle through, that is what he is doing even if he's falling apart.
That's some acting but sadly I think it's wasted on this show since it's become very clunky in its storytelling lately.
My problem with this show is that I don't ow how much is intentional and how much is Jared adding to the script. I listened to Sera Gamble's comment on Levee and she admitted that the scene with Bobby and Sam with the “Then shoot” was a merely intended as a throw away sentence. Bobby Singer then admitted that it was Jared's idea to have Sam pull the barrel up to his heart. That scene had me crying like a baby because Sam's despair ripped my heart out. Jim Beaver's reaction seemed very heartfelt and just made that scene one of the best of the entire show IMHO. (And I agree, it's about the only time I've seen Bobby express any feeling at all concerning Sam. Later when he asks how Sam is doing and actually seems to mean it, I almost fell out of the chair. He may e a father figure for Dean but certainly not for Sam. I don't think Sam even needs oe anymore, am's all grown up and muddling through.)
Same thing has been said about the smoky scene in “Heart”. Jared supposedly added the biting to that scene, making it unforgettable with the intimacy and passion.
I'll just agree with you all over the place, here. And it's interesting that you describe Padalecki the way you do, as he plays a character who has been relegated to the background. What he does with Sam is subtle and careful and seems very deliberate to me. He's never flinging around those broad shoulders of his just because he can, and, I think the viewer is rewarded when they pay attention to Sam because there's a lot there to like and be engaged by.
And it's funny you mention Born Under a Bad Sign. Before I reviewed that ep, I was a diehard Deangirl, yes, indeed I was. But after watching so many eps so very carefully for these reveiews, when I watched BUABS again, I realized what I was seeing. And it was pretty much as you describe, a subtle, clever, double-layered playing of the character of Sam against the character of Sam-as-demon.
Ah, Sylvia, thank you! I had been meaning to ask you the exact moment of your conversion to samgirl. You just answered me. That’s exactly what I find so fascinating about Sam and his portrayal by Jared: the ambiguity of the character. Sam is not the downright hero Dean is, and thusly he’s not a favorite of the viewers. There’s always a secretive quality about him, as if we’re not seeing everything. I don’t know if I make any sense, but that’s the way I feel.
I've always been a sucker for the anti-hero. Or the unsung hero. Or whatever you want to call him. I like complicated characters. (I predicted Snape two books before Rowling revealed him.)
Katya
Actually, I loved Snape. He was probably my favorite character. So I think we’re on the same page.
I like Draco. I like bad boys.
Watching him play this role was like watching Sixth Sense, the first time you have no idea and even the second time, when you know, you realize that every word, every line, every move, every twitch is a two-sided masterpiece. That's when I realized, holy COW, this guy's good! And totally unappreciated. So, when I go back and look at that particular review, which was a watershed for me, I can pick up on my own confusion over the matter, and how puzzled I was that my opinion was changing. Ackles is so pretty and so good and so glittery, yes, and I'm happy to watch and be dazzled. So how on earth could any other character or actor come close? Padalecki can, and Sam can. By being smoky and subtle, moving exactly as needed to portray dialog when he has none, and standing, even in the background, like there's nothing more important than getting it right. (Not to mention being so damn adorable when he smiles. I'm a sucker for dimples, esp on Polish boys.)
Yes oh yes, that episode still has me amazed, I have rewatched it a couple of times, all right , maybe more like 50 times and I still soak in the beauty of that masterpiece while I cringe at the bar scene with Jo, unable to look away. It's so wrong and Jared still makes it so captivating that I am transfixed. And he even makes Alona shine like never before in that scene. It was a real eye-opener for me too. I was dumb-stuck!
I haven''t reached that review of yours yet, I'll be sure to read it though very thoroughly.
I still think Jensen is more classically handsome, the dream boy but Jared, he is beautiful and I don't use that word lightly. Jared just swept me off my feet and I haven't landed yet. I suspect I never will.
Not that I am complaining.
I am a Deangirl but love, love, love Jared in Born Under a Bad Sign. I also felt the chemistry between Jo and Sam was so much more intense than anything we ever saw with Dean. If they had tried to promote a Jo-Sam relationship, I could have bought it.
I also really appreciated how well Jared captured the essence of the original Meg. After seeing him do this, I expected so much of every other actor who was a follow-up of another version of a character. No one but no one has done it as well as he did in this episode. And we see this same talent shining through when he captures Pellegrino's Lucifer so well in The End.
I have to admit I went the opposite of most girl's on this list. I only started watching the show because of the previews and what the showed of the Sam's character. I went into the show knowing I would love the younger brother – he was the type of character I always enjoyed most on shows.
Dean annoyed me in the Pilot except for some surprising scenes which caused me to watch a little closer in following episodes. It wasn't until Phantom Traveler that I decided I wasn't sure which brother I liked best. After Skin, I started to lean a little more toward Dean but it took Faith before the switch was made in my favorite brother.
However, I have always loved Sam and in an episode such as Born Under a Bad Sign that enduring love comes close to pushing aside his brother.
Dean had me from the beginning. he was witty and a tad bad. I swoonwd nd i till gind him so incredibly hot. I thought Sam wa so normal, the everyday college-kid, didn't do much for me. I think it was Home that had me go: "Huh?" and tart to pay closer attention to him.
I still love the Dean of the first seasons, with my entire heart. It's just lately that I find his storyline repetitive and that makes me pay less attention to Dean. They could have done so much more with the character,; made his storyline unique. And I'd love to see him possessed by John! Maybe we'll see Jensen take on Michael yet. I'd love to see it.
Yes, Jared really is special in the department of channeling other actors. I laughed my head off at his Horatio. Jensen was very good but Jared nailed everything about the character. Even the hip tilt. He even had Pellegrino's disparaging smile down pat. It was eerie!
I don't think you can even compare their acting based on their characters. They are really very opposite. Jensen does his job brilliantly, I just wish the writers would give him more differentiated scenes to emote in. It's been a little too much close ups while crying by the Impala lately. Give him a full out crying scene with snot running down his face. He'll still be pretty but it would be new. Or an angry, trashing the room while crying, anything that breaks the patterns nd I'll be happy. They are selling Jensen short by repeating the same kind of scenes over and over. He can do so much more than what they are currently giving him.
Oo, angry trashing while crying would be delightful.
I agree with you about Jared's acting of Sam. However, I think we see the same thing with Jensen's acting of Dean. That is what sometimes creates the disparity between some of the clunkier lines written for both characters. The actors know and feel the characters and when presented with lines that do their characters a dis-service they convey with their facial expressions and their body language what we really should take away from the scene.
I wouldn't be able to relate to Dean and Sam the way I do if they were played by less accomplished actors. I give thanks every episode that we are blessed with Jared and Jensen in these roles.
I just found your Supernatural reviews recently, and I love it! I fell in love with the show (and Jared Padalecki) this summer and went from "Wow, that's cool" to seriously obsessed fanfic writing fangirl in 9 epsiodes (Home).
Anyway, on this one, although a number of wonderful things happened, I was slightly disappointed for the 100th episode, as it almost felt like it didn't actually push the storyline ahead too far. I am with you on Cas, I had major issues with him for a long, long time, but his character is growing on me more in the last few episodes. However, I like Bobby a lot more than you. I thought it was great when he reminded Dean that Dean told him not to give up, so Dean can't give up either. Dean likes to think about himself as not counting in "saving people" especially since he's been dead so many times he forgets that living is kind of important. I don't know if that made sense.
Anyway. I still can't wait to see where it all is going to go, I love complete storylines. I also can't wait for more of your reviews!
Rosalind
Girls Are Geeks
I'm so glad you found the reviews and came by to read, and then comment. And how fun that you're being obsessed with Show, and writing fanfic and everything; getting a new fandom is a little like falling in love, isn't it? : D
I really enjoy it when the conversation about an ep takes off, and I learn something new that I hadn't seen before. But what really beguiles me is that so many people share my lack of enthusiasm for the Soap Angel, and yet…when he's doing good, we can all agree that the character is effective. As he was in this ep, or the ep with the cell phone. "The voice is asking me for more minutes!" Good comic relief without him taking over.
And hey, a lot of people like Bobby more than I do, which makes me feel better that he's getting some love, because sometimes I'm hating on him rather fiercely! Especially when he gets all emo and goes off the rails, which doesn't seem like how Bobby should be at all. Though I do like your reflection on the fact that Dean himself is also worth saving, which is what Bobby was trying to tell him. And what Sammy has been telling him all along. Remember at the beginning of Season 3? Sam said, "I don't want you to worry about ME! I want you to worry about YOU!"
Ah, boys. Thank you so much for making it worth sticking around.
To those who didn't read Bardic's review of Dark Side of the Moon, I strongly recommend that you do. She has a very interesting theory about how, why and by whom the boys' memories were manipulated. It does explain a lot of things. I know we're discussing a new episode here, but what happened back there has direct consequences on the remainder of the season.
I will have to check that out, thanks for the tip. : D
NEUROTIC, not erotic. Though at first I was thrown for a loop too. If you listen again, Zach glottalizes the 'n', so it sounds like 'erotic'. still squee-worthy, though.
I thought that too, but my CC said "erotically" so I'm not sure now. I know that the CC people get things way wrong, a lot, but in this case I couldn't be sure I wasn't the one who was confused.
The reports I've been hearing, from fans who've rewatched it, is that he is saying "erotically co-dependant," which makes me very happy indeed.
Anyway, back to this ep! I don't like the character of Adam. I wish another character had come back from the dead. There are quite a lot to choose from really! But in terms of the whole blood line thing, I guess it had to be Adam. I think Adam was pretty much forgotten by all fans watching, as soon as Sam and Dean were out of that room, and back on the road. So I hope the writers aren't going to make Adam an important part of the rest of the season. I also noticed the references to beer in the ep, and read way to much into it haha. My theory is that the beer was there to represent a sort of false normality or calm, in contrast to the crazy things happening in this ep and it's fairly hectic nature. Most people drink beer when they're trying to relax, or when they're at least not occupied with that small matter that is the apocalypse. So showing them all drinking beer, getting beers from the fridge etc, was meant to be sort of purposely ironic since every single character in this episode was pretty stressed out.
Poor Adam. I don't think he's going to be around for a whole lot (hopefully) but if he's the meatsuit and that keeps Dean safe and Sam happy? Then I'm happy.
The whole beer thing. To me it's what you drink when you want to set a tone, here we all are, happy and safe, with trust abounding, let's have a beer. For guys, maybe it's a kind of male bonding? For Zach, he probably felt it was blue collar and therefore something Dean could relate to, and that he would fall for. There's so many interpretations here!
I loved all the dithering in this ep, and the lovely conversations, which despite their not-so-lovely subject matter, were still lovely to me. Because they were Sam and Dean really talking, telling each other the truth and acting like brothers again. I missed that! (I also just have to say, since I'm very behind in my review reading and therefore commenting, that I can't believe that Dean threw out his amulet!! I really do hope Sam kept it for him.) Oh..I just saw the comment above. So Zach said neurotically, not erotically…I have to say, I am a little disappointed!
*sorry about the multiple comments, this comment box enjoys making my life difficult!
The comment box makes my life difficult too!
I am pretty comfortable thinking that Sam saved the amulet. It's been such an ongoing theme for Show both in Dean wearing it, and keeping it, and loving it, and then giving it up. It's not going away all that fast!
As for the line, erotically co-dependent is what I heard, and is much more fun to play with anyway. : D
And don't worry, the reviews will be there when you are ready for them.
I see there's not much love for Adam in the fandom. I'm not criticizing, I'm just curious. So why is poor Adam so disliked?
I can't figure that out either, Andrea. I admit, I didn't like the idea, when Jump the Shark first came up, but after the episode, I thought it all worked out all right. In my opinion, I'm not so sure Adam belonged in the 100th episode, and he seemed to take up a lot of screen and story time for what amounted to no good reason. I find it very hard to believe that adding a dying Adam to the mix is the thing that tipped Dean over into saying yes, before he took it back. But by no means do I dislike him.
I guess I have a soft spot for Adam because Jake Abel is so darned adorable. He's seems so sweet and charming and laid back, and he's a good actor.
I can't figure that out either, Andrea. I admit, I didn't like the idea, when Jump the Shark first came up, but after the episode, I thought it all worked out all right. In my opinion, I'm not so sure Adam belonged in the 100th episode, and he seemed to take up a lot of screen and story time for what amounted to no good reason. I find it very hard to believe that adding a dying Adam to the mix is the thing that tipped Dean over into saying yes, before he took it back. But by no means do I dislike him.
I guess I have a soft spot for Adam because Jake Abel is so darned adorable. He's seems so sweet and charming and laid back, and he's a good actor.
I seem to be in minority again, which is not an uncommon situation for me. Actually – for reasons I can’t quite explain – I liked the introduction of Adam. Perhaps it’s because I’m a big sister myself, and a fierce one. I always loved Dean’s big brother’s protectiveness towards Sam and it was cool seeing both Sam and Dean’s protectiveness towards Adam. And like you said, Jake Abel is adorable. I was left wondering and worrying about his fate.
As for his participation in the 100th episode, well, I think the idea was to reinforce the notion of family, which is at the core of Dean’s feelings. It’s unthinkable to Dean to see family in peril and pain, even if it’s a half-brother he barely knows. Anyways, I bet what affected him most was SAM in pain. All in all, I had much less problems accepting Adam than I had with Lisa appearing out of thin air. I still don’t buy that.
I heard many people say that a third brother is an unwelcome addition to the 2-brother dynamics. However, no one objects to Castiel as number 3 and his relationship with (only) Dean.
"However, no one objects to Castiel as number 3 and his relationship with (only) Dean. "
You're so very right. The moment Castiel started acknowledging that Sam even existed, and treating him with anything other than derision, a lot of fandom started complaining that the Dean/Castiel dynamic was ruined, and couldn't they go back to Dean and Castiel? I can't tell you how many comments I saw on previews of the 100th that bemoaned that very fact, the supposed loss of the fabulous Dean and Cas relationship. I've gone from hating Castiel, to tolerating him, to almost liking him, and if they continue to use him they way they have of late, I'll continue to like him. But his relationship with Dean is a subplot at the very, very best. I'm very tired of Castiel being the third Winchester, who resides in second place, in fandom's eyes.
I do agree with you on the Adam vs. Lisa thing. His reintroduction made sense in the context, where hers really didn't. And had it been another episode, other than the 100th, I wouldn't have objected at all to seeing Adam again. I never minded him as a third brother, even though up until now we never really saw Adam as Adam. He's an interesting, well played character.
I agree with you. I enjoyed JTS and I really loved Adam in this episode.
I'm not sure either why Adam is disliked. I liked the ghoul version of him in Jump the Shark, and was gutted (heh) when the real Adam was revealed to be dead. I have seen some clips of Jake Able at conventions and he seems charming and attractive. And I enjoyed seeing the real, more prickly, and defensive Adam in this episode.
I was soo behind on Supernatural this season because of work, and then I realised this was ep 100 and spent an enitre weekend catching up so that I could watch this one! And it didn't disappoint! I now need to spend another whole weekend reading all your reviews for this season syliva! I've really missed Show! But anyway, I just wanted to say that I loved this review! thanks for writing it! I'm impressed at the number of times you managed to use the phrase 'erotically co-dependant' in there! It's what I would have done haha.
I'm sorry to hear that you're still not a Castiel fan…I used to be the same, but we've sorted out our differences now Cas and I haha. The only thing I don't like about the character is how convenient he seems to be for the shows storylines. Like how he just pops up everytime he's needed to get Sam and Dean out of whatever mess they're in that would presumably take to much time and money to film a different conclusion too. Sort of like he's just a prop used by the writers whenever they need something wrapped up easily. But all that aside, I like Castiel.
I'm so glad you're here. And you're welcome for the review, it was more fun to write than usual, because there was so much to see and do this week. And so many times to use that line, which was ever so fun!
I'm glad you two have sorted out your differences – he can be a funny character, even if he is somewhat used as deus ex machina more than he should be. I mean, angels have powers, but seriously.
Hi Sylvia
Work has really been a stressor lately so I have unable to post any comments in several weeks. And, I really enjoyed ‘The Dark Side of the Moon’ and ’99 Problems’. Normally I would have been inspired to post but work has really impeded on my personal life lately. However, the 100th episode had so much goodness that I had to take a few moments to post some brief comments. Seriously, if I had the time, I would have returned to my old format of ‘writing a book’ : – ) but I need to keep this short so here is my list of things I absolutely ‘loved’ in the episode. There were so many ‘SQUEE’ moments….
let me count the ways….
1). There was ‘dither in the freaking car’! And oh how wonderful the dither was in that final scene!
"If you're grown up enough to find faith in me least I could do is return the favor. So screw destiny right in the face. I say we take the fight to them and do it our way." "Sounds good." Did you hear me shouting?! I let out a serious squeal….at that moment. So satisfying and rewarding! I have been waiting to hear Dean utter those words since the beginning of the season. And, I could tell he meant them.. I mean REALLY meant them. Dean and Sam…working together as a team. GO TEAM FREE WILL!!!!!!!!!
2). "Honestly? The damnedest thing. I mean the world's ending; the walls are coming down on us; I look over at you and all I can think about is this stupid son of a bitch brought me here. I just didn't want to let you down." Oh Dean…’be still my heart’. You have forgiven your baby brother and I am certain Sam can now rest easy.
3). The look Dean gave Sam, after he said ‘Yes’, followed by a sweet smile and a wink!! Yet another delicious fan girl moment!!!
4). "I don't get it, Sam. Why are you doing this?" "Because, you're still my big brother." Aw! Sammy still loves his big bro and he unchained him and went with him to the ‘green room’. I don’t think I ever loved Sam more than I did at that moment. :- ) He has never given up on Dean and he finally won his big brother over.
5). Oh how I have missed the warrior Cas. He was all ‘awesomeness’ and the ‘box-cutter’ scene was beyond clever. Oh…and he pummeled Dean which was oh so enjoyable. I know I am sick…sick person!
Dean’s face is a thing of beauty when he has cuts and bruises on it. Wow!! Cas is all pumped up!!
He kind of reminds me of Sam on Demon Blood. Killing Angels seems to give Cas power. Ummm!
6). Zach is gone and Dean was the one who took care of him.
7). Sam finally found redemption and I am beyond excited for what the future holds for Sam and Dean.
He finally got through to Dean and in my mind, HE was the only one who could. This show has always been about family…it is the core of the show and it is the glue that binds it together. Dean said some really hurtful things to Sam and Bobby and that first scene when he was packing away all of the things that meant the most to him…made me cry…but the ending was so glorious that I am so happy right now.
The Winchesters…fighting together….well…all is right with the world now!
Joan
You're right, Joan. Everything is alright, at least for now… So let's enjoy the moment. : )
Hi Andrea
Yes…the ending made me so very happy
I love this show so much!
Joan