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Sylvia Bond is a ten-year technical writing veteran with too many degrees under her belt to count. She lives in Colorado, but does not ski, preferring instead to spend her money and time at the annual Great American Beer Festival, taking road trips across the United States, and reading historical fiction from the comfort of her fluffy green arm chair. She has been involved in fandom since 1993 and been writing fanfic since approximately 1993. What she finds most amazing about fandom (besides the open heartedness of fans and the sheer amount of creativity) is how visible fandom has become. "In my day," she says, "we had to hide behind P.O. boxes to get fanfic. But nowadays, people wear t-shirts that shout their affiliation and share their shiny toys on the internet." It's a wonderful world. 89 Comments
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I'm sorry but, you think everything is unfair to Dean. I chose to focus on Dean's motivation since he was the one who was against the reunion. He was the one who changed his mind. So his motivation was the most important in that scene.
I'm not only critical of Sam. I'm just pointing out that I don't understand why it's fair to only be critical of Dean when Sam was motivated by fear as well.
As I said, I was responding to this in Whiskey's post: "He only took Sam back now because he's afraid of the future he saw coming true, which is a valid reason, but not a healthy one for their relationship." I just think it's only fair to say the same about Sam. So, I was trying to point out that IF we're going to finger point (which is not something I prefer to do) at what is "not healthy for their relationship" then it's only fair to say the same thing about Sam.
Sorry if I was unclear.
Andrea's point still holds. If you respond to a post that you think is critical only of Dean, by being critical only of Sam…how does that fix anything? What you said in your original reply to my post was not to balance things, it was to showcase how awesome Dean is by pointing out how it was really all Sam's fault. You put no blame upon Dean, rather you praised him for everything he did, neatly leaving out everything he didn't do. You can claim that you don't point fingers all you want, but what you write begs to differ.
As I said, I do believe they are BOTH motivated to get together again by more than just fear. I'm not "blaming" either of them for also being motivated by fear, but I agree it was a component of the reunion for BOTH of them. That's why I mentioned Sam. Not to place "all the blame" on him. I was responding specifically to the phone conversation.
And I certainly did point out that Dean's choices were leading to his mistaken notion that he had to de-humanize himself to defeat his enemy:
"All of Dean's choices this season were leading up to this. He was determined to cut off the emotional ties that have been used by the enemy in the past and will probably be used again. It was clear to him and he was determined to stay on course, to clean up his mess, to save the world."
I may understand Dean's point of view and motivations (just as I understand Sam's point of view and motivations to reunite), but I'm still glad that he admitted he was wrong to come to the conclusion that he and Sam were better off separated. I agree that he was wrong to only see the relationship as something that would weaken their ability to defeat Lucifer.
"Dean admitted he made A mistake. In cutting Sam off the way he did at the beginning of the episode. Nothing more."
But Dean's response in that phone conversation was merely the final culmination of Dean's choices to separate himself (both physically and emotionally) from Sam ever since Sam left. I think that's what he realized was the mistake — choices he made (along the way) that lead him to that response. I don't think Dean would be willing to work with Sam again or willing to place his trust and faith in Sam again if he thought the only mistake he made was that he wanted to remain physically separate from Sam. I do think Dean is determined to repair the relationship. YMMV.
"I love how it all comes back to how it is all about Dean for you."
Kind of like how it's all about Sam for you? ;-) But if there's something Dean should be doing, as you say, then it sort of has to be about Dean, right?
Dean's low self-worth has been established in canon. I think he needs to work to get past it in order to see that yes, Sam was lost and vulnerable without him. Dean knew he made a huge mistake by making that deal. He apologized to Sam for it in NRFTW. "I'm sorry Sam. It's all my fault." But I think Dean has put Sam up on a pedestal for so long, that he has a hard time seeing Sam as someone who would have such a difficult time living without him. As he told Sam in Scarecrow, he's PROUD of Sam's independence. And Dean spent most of S3 telling Sam that he's the strong one. That's something that Dean is convinced of.
To me, this in indicative of the low self-worth issues that have been an integral part of his characterization since the beginning. But from his self-reflection and examination of his "family issues" in DALDOM and JTS, I think (hope) he's working on this.
"I would quibble that. Sam made the call. Sam asked to come back."
Sure, but I was referring to their actual relationship ("we're stronger together" "we keep each other human") and not their individual circumstance of being vessels. And it was Sam who made the decision to separate in the first place, so it only makes sense that he would be the one to make the decision to return.
"But taking Sam's point of view into account, and how he feels about himself at the moment, as you did for Dean above, how much do you think Sam thinks he's worth right now?"
Well, Sam feels he's worthy of "redemption." I think that's a positive response.
"Dean admitted he made A mistake. In cutting Sam off the way he did at the beginning of the episode. Nothing more."
But Dean's response in that phone conversation was merely the final culmination of Dean's choices to separate himself (both physically and emotionally) from Sam ever since Sam left. I think that's what he realized was the mistake — choices he made (along the way) that lead him to that response. I don't think Dean would be willing to work with Sam again or willing to place his trust and faith in Sam again if he thought the only mistake he made was that he wanted to remain physically separate from Sam. I do think Dean is determined to repair the relationship. YMMV.
"I love how it all comes back to how it is all about Dean for you."
Heh. Kind of like how it's all about Sam for you? But if there's something Dean should be doing, as you say, then it sort of has to be *about Dean*, right?
Dean's low self-worth has been established in canon. I think he needs to work to get past it in order to see that yes, Sam was lost and vulnerable without him. Dean knew he made a huge mistake by making that deal. He apologized to Sam for it in NRFTW. "I'm sorry Sam. It's all my fault." But I think Dean has put Sam up on a pedestal for so long, that he has a hard time seeing Sam as someone who would have such a difficult time living without him. As he told Sam in Scarecrow, he's PROUD of Sam's independence. And Dean spent most of S3 telling Sam that he's the strong one. That's something that Dean is convinced of.
To me, this in indicative of the low self-worth issues that have been an integral part of his characterization since the beginning. But from his self-reflection and examination of his "family issues" in DALDOM and JTS, I think (hope) he's working on this.
"I would quibble that. Sam made the call. Sam asked to come back."
Sure, but I was referring to their actual relationship ("we're stronger together" "we keep each other human") and not their individual circumstance of being vessels. And it was Sam who made the decision to separate in the first place, so it only makes sense that he would be the one to make the decision to return.
"But taking Sam's point of view into account, and how he feels about himself at the moment, as you did for Dean above, how much do you think Sam thinks he's worth right now?"
Well, Sam feels he's worthy of "redemption." I think that's a positive response.
In Sympathy for the Devil, Zachariah said to Dean something to the effect of "You had a chance to stop your brother but you failed." Now, for all Sam knows, THIS is what Dean means when he said "We made this mess, we need to clean it up." We don't know that Dean has told anyone that he broke the first seal.
"If Sam knew that Dean had broken the first seal, I doubt he would have been so fervently trying to apologize to Dean for breaking the last one."
There's a difference in their respective situations though, as I'm certain Sam realizes. Sam actually knew about the existence of seals and he knew Lilith was involved in breaking them. He also knew that Lilith was testing him to see if he was strong enough to kill her. And Sam also trusted a demon. He worked with her and took her at her word, even knowing she was a demon. In their last conversation in WTLB, Dean tells Sam that Ruby is poison. Yet, he still went along with her plan.
Dean was not aware of the existence of seals prior to going to hell. It wasn't a matter that he would break in hell, it was merely a matter of *when* he would break. Hell is… hell.
I guess I hope that Sam understands the difference between Dean breaking the first seal while he was in hell, and he breaking the final one?
"The we and mess in this case could just as easily, from Sam's point of view, have referred to the fact that Dean didn't stop Sam. Sam knows Dean was charged with that responsibility, and it would not be unreasonable of him to take it that way."
I suppose, but Dean was being held captive by angels, so, it's not like he really had much power to do anything. And Sam NOW knows that Zach actually wanted him to kill Lilith. He knows that it wasn't Dean's responsibility to stop HIM. It's Dean's responsibility to stop Lucifer.
But I still wish that this conversation about Dean being the one who started it would have happened onscreen, and if I'm wrong (which I very well could be) maybe there's still a chance it will?
"I'm valiantly resisting the urge to bash my head against the desk here."
Well, with that rather patronizing remark, I'll leave the discussion.
I, like you also thought that Sam would not right away telling Dean about Lucifer. Sam wouldnt want their hunting together back again based on "brothers relationship" not "partnership based on ability and trust". Wasnt that one of the cause of their rift? Sam was tired of become little brother.
But, Sammy is also scared, and rightly so. Besides, he SHOULD put aside his independence issue, if the danger is become Lucifer vessel at any given moment. Sam doesnt have the luxury to waste more time.
This is what I love about Sam, he put aside personal issue and concentrate on bigger problem at hand. Its positive,but also can eat him alive.
The ending is Dean accepts Sam because Sam is his brother and Sam is so grateful and doesnt seem to care whys. Because what can he do? at the very least Sam would be relieve that Dean would be easily take him down if ever Lucifer came near him. Sam is really out of option here.
And wanna bet as soon as they back to hunt together again, Dean will start to bark orders and decide what to hunt ( hunt small matters such as vampire, ghouls, ghost etc ) and what to put on hold ( hunting Lucifer) similar to what he did in season 4 when all Sam wanted was hunting Lilith and Dean wanted to hunt vampire in "monster movies"? Or avoid Lilith at all cost similar to "monster at the end of the book"? Maybe out of testing whether Sam would obey him or not? I am sure this time around Sam would not be as rebellious as he used to be and just takes it all in.
This is one of the reason that puzzle me about Supernatural. The brother who avoid problem is the one who is "right" at the end, where as the one who is " face the advesary head on" is put in the "wrong". What is the lesson they want to give? Avoid problem because eventually they will go away by itself?
My fav line of the episode: "Dean, don't do this" and "I win, so I win".