As I've said previously, in a nutshell, one thing Galactica is about, is religion and spirituality and how we interpret what we don't, or can't understand. The Cylons and (some) humans see "God" as divine but that doesn't make it so. In fact, in various appearances, Head Baltar seems very scornful and disdainful of how the Cylons view "God." As if they have it all wrong. (I'm thinking this was back in the episode "Downloaded.")

Starbuck was not an "angel." RDM has said so in interviews. She was literally a resurrected human. And true, there is we didn't see other physical characters just vanish and there was no explanation for this.

But let's not act like Starbuck had a mundane life and there was nothing "miraculous" or odd about her life. Then, in the final few minutes of the finale, she just did something completely weird.

I do seem to recall an episode where she flew her Viper into a storm on a gas giant, that looked like a mandala like that she had been painting all of her life, and died when her Viper was crushed and exploded. And then she showed up months later, countless light years away in a pristine version of her Viper with tales of Earth. And then found the damaged Cylon base ship. And then her Viper pointed the way to Earth. And then she found another Earth using a song made popular by our Bob Dylan and Jim Hendrix.

So when just up and vanished… well, that was like one of the least impressive things she did, really.

And when she said her farewell to Anders and he responded with "See you on the other side." I knew that somehow she wasn't going to be a part of the continuing story of the surviving humans. Didn't expect her to just vanish but I smiled when she did.

Let's be honest, there was no way that in the finale, the writers were going to pull something out of thin air that explained it all away. There was always going to be an ending that, in some way, could be interpreted by the characters, and we the viewers, as "supernatural.' But once again, just because it could be interpreted that way doesn't make it so.

And that is the beauty of ambiguity in story telling. It can be what you, the viewer, want it to be.

You're saying that it is definitely supernatural and silly as a result.

I am saying that it could be seen as supernatural but that maybe it's not. Because, as Arthur C Clark's third law of prediction states: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

How do we know that "God" isn't some being (or beings) that is just really advanced in its development or technology? Something that the Colonials and Cylons just interpret as divine because that can't see it any other way.

Or maybe "God" in Galactica really is just supernatural and divine. Maybe
the Cylons and humans had it right all along.

Works for me in either case. Anyway, it's just a TV show. And a very good TV show at that. At least I thought so.

Agreed. The process is irrelevant. Yes, RDM and the writers made the show up as they went. We're talking a mini-series and 4 seasons of weekly, episodic television. Of course there were different ideas kicked around. Drafts and rewrites. And ideas that were dropped or didn't pan out the way expected.

Fat Apollo anyone? That went nowhere fast and was abandoned.

Or the original ending of the finale which was supposed to be battle between the Galactica and a pissed off Ellen who had sided with Cavil because she was pissed Tigh got Caprica prgenant. That was dropped for not being epic enough.

And so on and so on.

Yeah, sometime the writers write themselves into corners or come up with some stinkers. But the only thing that is important is what we see on the episode itself.

I didn't mean to offend, and if I did I'm sorry. However, I'm not talking to The Internet, I'm talking to you. And as I HAVE spoken to you outside the confines of this website, I DO know a little about how you feel about spirituality and religion, and I didn't think it inappropriate to address it in this context. I know we disagree on these issues, which is why I wanted to talk to you about this episode specifically! Because debate is fun!

And I guess I would just not base my feelings on a story based on what the writer said about their process. As I said in my other comment, all that matters is the finished product. I don't care how they got there, as long as I can look at the whole work and see that, from beginning to end, it made sense to me. All I'm saying is that BSG did, and that if you look at the series in its entirety you can see where lots of things pointed in the direction of this ending. Even if it wasn't originally planned that way, the foundation that had been set up was used effectively in the end.

"Before the series finale, I was considering going back and re-watching the entire series as a single piece. Since thought provoking, philosophical questions were thrown out the window at the very end in exchange for LITERAL mysticism, I no longer have the need to ever see this show again."

I think this might be another reason why our reactions to the show were so different. I watched BSG on DVD in a two-month "marathon." I didn't have a year between seasons to mull over what I thought it would or should be. I didn't spend a week between each episode developing my own theories. I took the story as it came at me in one lump sum, and the ending, to me, jived with what I'd just spent two months watching. Maybe I'd feel differently if I'd watched it in real time. But I'd recommend (after you cool down a bit!) watching the show in its entirety again, just to see if that changes your perception of it. It might not, but it's not as though there weren't plenty of episodes you liked, or you wouldn't have been watching it at all. So, it wouldn't be a total loss.

Well, we definitely interpreted that character very differently. Because what you saw as not giving a definitive answer, I saw as her telling him the truth at first (she's an angel of God), and then, when he wouldn't believe that, because he's a scientist and a skeptic, she gave him rationales for her being there that he WOULD believe so that he would allow her to continue visiting him. I saw the other explanations as how she allowed him to rationalize her presence to himself, because he was too important to the grand plan to just allow to be left to his own devices.

"There was no answer given, it was open ended. There was mystery, it could have been any, none or some combination of all things. At NO point in the entire series did we have a physical character go *poof*. In-Head's popped in and out of scene all the time, but they were visible to, at most, a single individual. Starbuck was not only visible to the entire fleet, she was able to touch and be touched, and she got herself a shiny new Viper to boot. If Six and Baltar (in-head) are Angels, then Starbuck was something else."

I had been thinking about that, and what I saw in the show is that Head Six and Head Baltar appeared in those forms to just those two people because they were the forms those two loved most. (funny then that Baltar saw both Six and HIMSELF! His love for Six seconded only by his love of Baltar!) Starbuck, meanwhile, was important and meant something to the people of Galactica. It makes sense that everyone was able to see her, because she mattered to Galactica. Head Six and Head Baltar touched the human/cylon counterparts that could see them all the time. Hence all the sexytimes. Even if it's only that the Angels can make those that can see them think and feel that they are being touched, that's enough, and that's what we saw. It goes to follow that if Starbuck is the same as H6 and HBaltar, then she would touch and be touched by as many people as can see her. And she'd be seen by as many people as care about her, which is everyone on Galactica.

"But they couldn't, because according to Ron Moore's own words (can't remember if it was an interview or a podcast), he himself didn't know WHAT she was when she reappeared after her death. If the mastermind of the show is pulling it out of his ass as he goes along, then yes, that's bad writing."

You keep bringing up what Ron Moore said about his process, but at the end of the day that doesn't matter. Good writing is coming up with something good and plausible that – even if it didn't start out that way – could conceivably come from what was set up. Whether your ending is planned from the beginning, or whether you write your way to your ending doesn't matter. Good writers do both, and just because you don't have your ending planned from the beginning doesn't mean you're pulling it out of your ass. Especially on TV. It's only a recent phenomenon that people see entire TV series as a single work, thanks to DVD. What matters is the ending, and how it fits into the beginning and middle. And can it be explained logically within the context of the world that's been set up. And what I'm saying is that in the case of BSG, it can. As for setting up Starbuck – I think that's exactly what they were doing when they were peeling away the possibilities of what she WASN'T. For a while after she returned, it seemed "obvious" that she'd be a cylon. But she couldn't be, because of X,Y, and Z. A hybrid? Nope. By eliminating what she couldn't be, they were setting up the only thing she COULD be. The same as Head Six and Head Baltar.

Also, the writer's job is to tell a story. And they did. And in this case "God" is defined as… undefined. It's not lazy. It's a creative choice. This is from an old interview from RDM:

Q: In "Galactica 1980," we actually meet the "Imperious Commander" of the Cylons who turns out to be the Devil in the guise of a humanoid. Will we ever meet the maker of the Cylons in this version?

A: I think if we ever found an answer to why the Cylons have a god or who the god is–you know, the guy steps out from behind the curtain–I think you'd be disappointed. They're in an interesting place in that their faith is as legitimate as the human faith. Human beings have souls given by the gods, and Cylons have a soul given by their one true god and that has to be just as valid. That means there is a plan for their soul and something for them after they die too. It's a fundamental element of their faith.

The whole interview is here: http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Movies/200...

I think too many people wanted the finale to really pull the curtain back and show us the Wizard (in this case Galactica's "God") was not what the Cylons (or Colonials) thought he was. As if in the last couple hours, some viewers wanted it all explained away with no possibility of a supernatural explanation.

No you silly Cylons, your "God" is really… what? John de Lancie as "Q" from The Q Continuum on loan from "Star Trek? Or maybe The Architect from The Matrix movies? Maybe it's aliens in the Ship of Lights from the original Galactica?

I shudder at the thought of such an ending.

On one side we have a human civilization, significantly much more technologically advanced than our own, following a polytheistic religion. On the other side in a race of sentient, artificially intelligent lifeforms with a monotheistic belief system.

And throughout the entire series there was something going on that could not be explained. Visions and prophecies. Events happening that don't seem to be lucky accidents or coincidences. Things that seem to be miraculous.

Some of the characters think it's divine. some skeptics turn into believers. Some losing their faith along the way. Some are undecided. And some think it's a bunch of frakkin' crap.

But the thing is, in the end, we, like the characters, really are able to decide for ourselves what we think "God" was. Since we aren't pigeon holed with an explanation, it's up to us the viewers to decide.

And I'm OK with that.

Anyway, the great mystery of Galactica was not the miraculous or "God" but where did all of corners trimmed off of every piece of paper or photograph go.

"The SECOND a character physically vanished off the screen, with no explanation other than supernatural, we were TOLD what was right and what was wrong."

I disagree. The second Starbuck vanished off the screen, she vanished off the screen. It's as simple as that. By saying it's supernatural, well that's an interpretation and not an explanation. Just because we don't know what happened or how doesn't mean the explanation is supernatural. Nor does it make the "God" of Galactica supernatural or divine.

Again, this up to the characters, and the viewers, to decide. But our decision is essentially opinion because we truly don't know.

All over the internet, I see this again and again (read through the BSG Finale thread on AICN, for example). My arguments are based on the show creator's own words and the evidence of what was presented to me on the screen. The Pro-Angel brigade relies on attempts at mind-reading and presuming to know what those dissatisfied with Starbuck-Go-Poof as a satisfactory ending are REALLY dissatisfied with, and what they REALLY believe. You don't know, and you shouldn't presume to know.

"In the world of this show, as has been set up from the first episode, angels walk the earth and guide people."

You're 100% wrong. Head Six claimed to be an angel of god. She also claimed to be a manifestation of Baltar's own guilt, some sort of transmission, and a hallucination. There was never a definitive answer given as to what she was. And it's not like the answer was given at any point later than the final episode – Earlier this season, when Starbuck returned, Baltar even asked if she was a hallucination come to drive him mad, too.

I don't remember Baltar having to make any similar declarations of what he was or was not – I assume that the what of In-Head Baltar was covered by the audiences experience with the Six.

There was no answer given, it was open ended. There was mystery, it could have been any, none or some combination of all things. At NO point in the entire series did we have a physical character go *poof*. In-Head's popped in and out of scene all the time, but they were visible to, at most, a single individual. Starbuck was not only visible to the entire fleet, she was able to touch and be touched, and she got herself a shiny new Viper to boot. If Six and Baltar (in-head) are Angels, then Starbuck was something else.

A constant hallmark of bad storytelling is when something not established in the world of the story is suddenly introduced in the last act as the resolution to the story. If they intended Starbuck to be an angel, then they damn well better establish that possibility much earlier than the final three hours of the show. But they couldn't, because according to Ron Moore's own words (can't remember if it was an interview or a podcast), he himself didn't know WHAT she was when she reappeared after her death. If the mastermind of the show is pulling it out of his ass as he goes along, then yes, that's bad writing.

Before the series finale, I was considering going back and re-watching the entire series as a single piece. Since thought provoking, philosophical questions were thrown out the window at the very end in exchange for LITERAL mysticism, I no longer have the need to ever see this show again.

"The SECOND a character physically vanished off the screen, with no explanation other than supernatural, we were TOLD what was right and what was wrong. That the unbelievers were wrong. Admiral Adama was mistaken in his belief that the prophecies were a myth. There were no more questions within the BSG story. There is no longer any room for doubt.

So yeah, it did matter."

See, this is where I feel like you need to define exactly what you're arguing about a little better.

Head Six and Head Baltar have been angels all along. But for a while, there was mystery – are they hallucinations? Are they cylon programming? Why is it that only these two characters can see them? Why do they look like these two characters and not like anyone else? They would appear and go *poof* ALL THE TIME. They would appear with new, snazzy clothes, then go *poof* (so why not arrive with a brand spanking new viper if Head Six gets new dresses?) For four seasons, the device of angels going *poof*, which you seem so annoyed by, WAS BEING SET UP. Now, it turns out that Starbuck, ever since she died, came back as an angel to fulfill Kara Thrace's mission of leading humanity to Earth. Then, using the convention that was being used for FOUR SEASONS by H. 6 and H. Baltar, SHE WENT POOF.

You proposed a more "elegant" ending in which Kara walks off into the sunset, "leaving it up to the audience" to decide if she was an angel or not. You know what? No. Open-ended endings and "leaving it up to the audience" isn't the only path to effective writing, you know. In fact, I often see THAT as a cop-out meaning that the writer was too afraid to make a choice and trust their audience. Believe it or not, sometimes writers want to say things. Sometimes, they want to assert a point or make a definite choice. And in the end, this choice DOES give some parameters for God in this series in that this is apparently a God that has used angels to communicate with and guide people. We don't know what God IS, but we know how God WORKS in the world of BSG. And at the end of it all, the writers wanted us to be sure of the fact that, in this world, angels exist. What human beings do with the knowledge imparted by these angels is, as always, their choice.

You've been calling shennanigans on "bad writing", when really, I think you just don't like the answer they've given you. And that's fine. You can think it's a stupid answer. But you can't call it bad or ineffective writing just because you would RATHER that had not been the answer. In the world of this show, as has been set up from the first episode, angels walk the earth and guide people. Hate that all you want, but it wasn't out of left field, and it wasn't poorly executed from a dramatic writing standpoint.

Umm, because that's a writer's JOB? To define the parameters of a piece of fiction, and then set the characters in motion within that fictional world?

"Galactica was about people."

Except for when it wasn't. For a show that was ostensibly about people, Angels and In-Heads and Robots certainly seemed to fill out the final scenes.

"Which is right? Which is wrong? What if they're both right? Or both wrong? Does it matter?"

The SECOND a character physically vanished off the screen, with no explanation other than supernatural, we were TOLD what was right and what was wrong. That the unbelievers were wrong. Admiral Adama was mistaken in his belief that the prophecies were a myth. There were no more questions within the BSG story. There is no longer any room for doubt.

So yeah, it did matter.