Comments on: Supernatural: Sex and Violence

By: June

June — Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:11:03 +0000

Thanks for your insightful article on "the Show." I'm lucky enough to live in Vancouver where Supernatural is filmed. They filmed at an anarchist bookstore right beside my work; I caught glimpses of Sam (swoon) and the Impala was parked out front (apparently there's four of them). My co-worker and I had quite the geek out that day!

By: Debbiel

Debbiel — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:31:37 +0000

I'm very, very new to Supernatural, but I've loved your fanfiction from S&H and was thrilled to see you were a fan and find your reviews. Having watched the entire series from the beginning over a very short time, I'm a bit overwhelmed by the darkness of Season 4. Your review gave me some hope, however, and I wanted to thank you for that. Here's to light at the end of the tunnel… thanks so much for your reviews. (And I've now read your SPN stories as well and will comment on LJ – wonderful!)

By: Debbiel

Debbiel — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:31:37 +0000

By: Sylvia Bond

Sylvia Bond — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:13:56 +0000

You're more than welome. Seriously, writing a review for an ep as good as this one was was a pleasure. I tend to try and look on the positive side, and it's easier to find that when everyone on Show is on the ball!

I like Robijean's theory too – I have a feeling that Sam wil come through okay on the other side of whatever hell Show is going to put him through, but the idea that the YED started a process to strip away his humanity is a good one. I think you'll get your wish for Sam going darkside, Show has been pointing towards it for ever so long. They can hardly dissapoint us now, can they.

That Dean needs his little brother back above all else is sad, and very moving. He could have the whole world, and all he needs is Sam. Sam, who has been moving away for ages now. I just gotta tell you, this whole situation is going to get a lot darker before it gets lighter.

Best Regards,

Sylvia

By: Joan

Joan — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 18:47:37 +0000

I should start reading! Thanks

By: Chook

Chook — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 05:42:04 +0000

Hi! Thanks for the review Sylvia! It's always great to read your reviews, especially after an ep as good as this. I had to wait a while to watch the ep (i live in Australia) and the suspense was killing me! but it was totally worth it….i really enjoyed the ep, especially because it was about both brothers at the same time, as you said I think what Robijean said about the YED's end game being to strip away Sams humanity to create a demon that can't be killed was a really good theory….i guess we'll have to wait an see! I found it sad that the Siren appeared to Dean as a brother figure, rather then a love interest, showing that what Dean really needs and wants is his little brother back to normal. i think ill be a Samgirl till the end, but i really felt for Dean in this situation. Sams words were so harsh, and Dean spoke nothing but the truth. Although it would be kinda cool to see what happened if Sam went darkside (im a bad fan like that!), this ep made me hope for Deans sake that he doesnt.
Thanks again!

By: *bright

*bright — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:19:25 +0000

Late t the game but I adore your review. , Just wanted to add something i found hilarious. Cara was really was Dean from before. Hangover but not giving a damn about it, live life like there's no tomorrow, it all screams Dean pre-hell.
Sam's more like a parent to Dean now, he even awakes him with, "Up and at 'em kiddo!" The roles have truly been reversed.

Dean turned into controlling John, ver'y creepy that Sam's taken on his father's blind need for revenge while Dean has adopted his controlling features.

I don't like how show's painting Sam all black while Dean is excused everything because of his stint in Hell though. Not since Dean chose that route himself, for not purely altruistic reasons according to his speech at Sam's death bed. He said he didn't do his job, the one that John had told him to do. That always stayed with me like a big 'huh'? It wasn't love after all that had him resurrect Sam, and this comes very much forth in this ep. Dean's been both verbally and physically abusive toward Sam all season. About time Sam hit back, I admit, I cheered but I also knew Sam would get shit for it.

I don't think I'll be watching it anymore because of the sanctifying of Dean and vilifying of Sam though. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth sice I embarked on this journeey thinking both brothers would turn out to bee heroes.

By: Bren

Bren — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 04:21:04 +0000

I like your thinking there. I can't buy into the debate that Rudy has any altruistic motives. I don't know if she is the YED's endgame or if she is playing an opportunistic game all her own.
I believe that Sam will less and less grudgingly be drawn along the path to dark-side. And I still believe that Dean will be the key to Sam's humanity. I just am rather at a loss as to how it will all go down.

By: Sylvia Bond

Sylvia Bond — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:43:30 +0000

I do not honestly know how they manage to get more beautiful all the time, but they do. The characters are becoming real men, tried by the world and found adaptable; and I've always figured that when a man hits 30, his shoulders suddenly go KAPOW, which is nice to watch.

Are you reading your daily fan fiction? That should help.

By: Sylvia Bond

Sylvia Bond — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:41:37 +0000

Thank you, that is very kind of you to say.

By: Robijean

Robijean — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:43:58 +0000

Now you have me wondering if this was the YED's game plan. To have the powers strip away your humanity without making you a demon that is weakened by iron, salt, and holy water. A being that was not created in hell, is not a true demon, and cannot be exorcised. This would be the perfect warrior to carry out his endgame. A human with powers and no humanity.

I know there has been a lot of speculation that Ruby could be working to carry out the YED's endgame and that is why she keeps pushing Sam. I mean most of the time we see her saying he needs to make the powers stronger by doing something he doesn't want to do. What if that something in addition to increasing his powers also weakens his humanity.

One day his humanity will be so far gone he may even decide to go evil by throwing the switch like Ava and Jake did. Even if he never makes the conscious decision, I think the end result is going to be the same.

Hopefully, Sam recognizes what's happening in time to step off the path he's following. Perhaps Ruby will go too far and he will finally realize he's being played.

By: Bren

Bren — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:26:08 +0000

I find the way you commented that as Sam's powers increase his humanity is disappearing. If you recall from "Malleus Maleficarum" – that nicely mirrors what Ruby told Dean about how demons are created in Hell.
I haven't followed this thought train all the way through, but Ruby claims that what separates her from all the rest of the demons is that she retains her memory of humanity. Interesting if she is in fact leading Sam down the path that makes him lose his.

By: Whiskey

Whiskey — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:10:42 +0000

I think this may be a situation where we have to chalk it up to varying mileage. I went back and watched the end of Family Remains, and paid very close attention to Sam's facial expressions and I couldn't find anything that qualified to me as a sarcastic eye roll. He moved his eyes alot, but not in a sarcastic way. His tone of voice, and his expression at the end conveyed worry and concern, to me. At the beginning of that episode, Sam was worried about Dean, about him not sleeping and running on fumes, and he seemed bothered by the way Dean was pretending the confession never happened. I just don't see a total lack of compassion and empathy coming from him in those settings.

I do agree that they want us to think that Sam is close to going dark, and I worry for both brothers. I don't want to see harm (of a permanent nature) come to either of them, and at the moment, that seems to be an inescapable conclusion to events.

By: Robijean

Robijean — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:50:08 +0000

I agree with you that both brothers were perfectly willing to hurt the other with words and were also willing to kill. Sam was throwing punches pretty fast and furious, he wasn't holding back. So yes he would have killed his brother.

Fortunately he didn't win. If Sam had, we'd have a dead Dean since Bobby would have come to late. The fight would have been much shorter.

The differences in their fighting styles shows the advantage is Sam's if the fight is quick. In the fights we've seen him win he takes his opponent down hard and fast. The longer the fight the less likely he is to win against a reasonably matched opponent.

Since he wasn't able to take Dean down quickly, the odds changed in Dean's favor and we see him winning. And Bobby comes before Dean drives the axe into Sam's chest or head.

So neither boy comes out of this anywhere near innocent or squeaky clean. They both did everything they could to hurt the other and they were both willing to kill.

By: Robijean

Robijean — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:37:56 +0000

I took it that way because of the very obvious eye roll Jared did prior to Dean's confession at the end of Family Remains. I saw little compassion for his brother there. And I think the events at the beginning of that episode showed Dean had only said the one short two minute talk with Sam and was back to repressing things. The eye roll seemed extreme and was IMO another sign that Sam's compassion and empathy is disappearing.

At one time early in the season he seemed concerned about what Dean might remember. Later he made the nasty comment about don't spare the details. I do know he stopped asking and I felt then he was giving Dean space and waiting for him.

Now, however, I'm afraid he just wasn't interested anymore. I don't know what show is trying to tell us but the message I'm getting is that as Sam's powers improve his humanity is slowly disappearing.

So the conscious decision to have the eye roll in FR and the wording of Sam's speech in this episode makes me fear for Sam. I do feel the show is trying to tell us he is very close to going dark.

By: Whiskey

Whiskey — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:17:36 +0000

If that is the way it was meant then yes, that is truly worrying. I personally saw it as Sam mocking Dean's "whining" (his words, not mine) about it, which seemed to be in response to Dean telling him about it. If someone has done something that bothers them and they tell you about it to a point where you feel they are whining about it, if you complained, would you be complaining about what they did? Or their feelings about what they did? Or the fact that they keep telling you how bad they feel? Personally, if I found myself in the situation, my complaint would be that they had voiced their problems to an excessive point (which is not to say that I feel Dean has done this), not the original problem, or their concern over it. Obviously, YMMV. As the author (who is NOT me) of the excellent fic recommended at the bottom of this thread points out, Sam's remarks about Dean's "whining" could have been born out of Sam's own guilt over how Dean wound up in Hell in the first place, something that Dean has shown absolutely no concern over. Then again, his plate is a bit full at the moment.

By: Whiskey

Whiskey — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:16:17 +0000

If that is the way it was meant then yes, that is truly worrying. I personally saw it as Sam mocking Dean's "whining" (his words, not mine) about it, which seemed to be in response to Dean telling him about it. If someone has done something that bothers them and they tell you about it to a point where you feel they are whining about it, if you complained, would you be complaining about what they did? Or their feelings about what they did? Or the fact that they keep telling you how bad they feel? Personally, if I found myself in the situation, my complaint would be that they had voiced their problems to an excessive point, not the original problem, or their concern over it. Obviously, YMMV. As the author of the excellent fic recommended at the bottom of this thread points out, Sam's remarks about Dean's "whining" could have been born out of Sam's own guilt over how Dean wound up in Hell in the first place, something that Dean has shown absolutely no concern over. Then again, his plate is a bit full at the moment.

By: Robijean

Robijean — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:24:23 +0000

Actually what he seemed to be mocking to me wasn't Dean breaking under torture but Dean's CONCERN about having tortured other souls. And that scares me for Sam if he has reached a place where he thinks that shouldn't disturb and upset Dean. Sam seems to have lost his ability to feel compassion. We saw that to some extent in Family Remains with his lack of empathy for the feral children. I think Sam is farther down that slippery slope than we believed from what they showed us prior to FR and this episode.

By: Whiskey

Whiskey — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:09:16 +0000

What you pointed out about Sam's mocking is true, and interesting to me. Personally, and I speak only for myself, I would have been more disturbed by what he said, had he mocked Dean for breaking under torture, and in fact I think had he truly wanted to be vicious, that's exactly what he would have done. That is what Dean blames himself for, what he is hurting over and it would have to be a giant weak spot for him at the moment. Sam's mocking over the fact that Dean confessed, but not what he confessed to, seems to me to have been a mercy, and in my opinion, would indicate a possibly better frame of mind for Sam than was previously indicated. But that is only my opinion.

By: Whiskey

Whiskey — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:09:10 +0000

As far as their words go, someone else, somewhere else, who is much more observent than I pointed this out. In Metamorphosis, Dean told Sam "if I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you". Under the influence of the Siren, Dean said "It's like I don't even know you." (Please forgive me, I'm quoting from memory here, and I'm sure that's not exactly right.) So to Sam, hearing those words from his brother, would have hit him pretty hard. I'm not saying what Sam said wasn't mean, just that what seemed like innocuous stuff from Dean at first glance, could have had far greater impact on Sam than we realized.

(and a third one…sorry!)