Firstly, don’t judge this site and the people who write for on me. I don’t work eher. I’m just another reader with an opinion.

Secondly, has anything I said stopped the status quo from being challenged by you? Why must someone’s call for rational and calm persuasive debate be equated with “shutting people up”?

You keep on with “oh, we tired all those other things you said, they didn’t work, so now we rage.” But what has that gotten you? Was it any more effecvtive than the other things you claim you tired? Alpha-Girl’s experience would seem to suggest that the current stratagy isn’t working wither. The fact you have so many people against you, seems to suggest that the tactic is a failure. Yet, rather then look to something new, you keep crying about the “bad PR” you cause is getting as a result of the tactics you’ve chosen to use.

You made a really great point about the distribution side of the comic direct marketplace. Why aren’t you working towards addressing that? There an issue that doesn’t devide by gender. It doesn’t call into question the personalities of those who don’t agree with your viewpoint. It is something that would affect ANYONE who wanted to “make the comics,” regardless of things like gender or race. It’s a challenge and goal that could be used to unite people, not set them at each others throats.

I, personally, am astonished why you fight so hard to preserve a tactic that has so obviously failed and is, by some accounts, doing way more harm than good, not only to the cause and those who engage in the tactic, but even those who are innocent in its use.

Is it any real wonder why these issues never seem to get addressed? Is it any wonder you never get any satisfaction, no matter how much you “rage against the machine?”

You said I shouldn’t tell you how to fight your fight. Well, on some level you are correct. I shouldn’t, because you should see all the things that I and others have been stating and adjusting your tactics to something that will work. I’ve offered up ideas (even though you claim most have been tried, I know I’ve not seen many attempts of them used). I’ve tried to explain why the raging isn’t working and the harm it is causing for everyone. But nowhere do I say for you to stop the fight. Nowhere to I say you should all just “shut the hell up.” If that’s all you’ve seen in my words, well, maybe I’m partly to blame for not making my thoughts clear. But then, you also are to blame for doing the very thing you complain is done to you: Not listening to what someone is saying and seeing only what you want to see. Funny how it always seems to work out that way, doesn’t it?

‘The wheels on the bus go round and round….’

Don’t confuse commenters with content writers. And don’t confuse an individual’s opinion for the opinion of everyone involved with Pink Raygun.

You accuse us of having a false face. May I direct you to Lisa’s very first post about what Pink Raygun is and is intended to be? The link will open up in a new window.

Why The World Needs Pink Raygun.

Back?

Pink Raygun was never meant to be anything more or less than what it is. It’s not an activist site. It’s not a site where one gender is disparaged at the expense of the other (edited to add: not to say that feminist sites automatically disparage by their very nature). We conduct interviews at all levels of genre entertainment, with a special focus on speaking with the women. We spoke with Monica Staggs about being a stuntwoman in a stuntman’s world. We’ve done interviews with women who work behind the scenes at Weta Workshops in New Zealand. We interviewed both Tahmoh Penikett and Nikki Clyne from Battlestar Galactica, and while Lisa indulged in a little fangirl drooling over “shirtless Helo,” the questions posed Ms. Clyne were focused on her craft and what it’s like playing a woman on a science fiction TV show.

We’ve got lots more interviews with women in genre in the transcription and scheduling phases as we speak. The list of those we’re attempting/planning to contact growing longer by the week, as we continually ask the women we interview who their inspirations are.

We’re only just now passing our six-month mark of being in existence. Already, we’re on one movie studio’s and one television network’s press junket, and we’re starting to get set invitations to genre shows. We’ve just hit our fifty-thousandth unique visitor, and we have about 14,000 regular, repeat visitors. The more we grow, the more the companies we look to interface with take us seriously, and the more access we get the more chance we have to ask those questions that a site like Aint It Cool News (to give just one example) might not.

At Comicon, Lisa and I attended a panel on movies and internet “superstars.” There wasn’t a single female face on the stage, and there were very few in the audience. Pink Raygun exists to help begin balancing that gender inequity, just a bit.

John Dallaire
pinkraygun.com

There isn’t one single type of fangirl, unfortunately, the Mother Jones article implies that there is. You’re entitled to your opinion just as I’m entitled to mine. You don’t have to agree with me. No one does.

This site is geared toward fangirls, but that doesn’t mean that myself or any Raygun writer is going to pander to a demographic and say only what the blogoshpere wants to hear. Not at the expense of integrity and our honest – and just as valid as yours – opinions. You’re going to encounter a variety of opinions here. Some of them are going to seriously piss you off.

So, it isn’t false advertising. It’s a different fangirl viewpoint – one that appears not to fit in with your personal fangirl profile.

And that’s OK. You’re free to have your own viewpoint. I’m free to have mine.

When “your fight” affect more than just yourselves; when it involves you and your’s dictating what forms of entertaiment should and shouldn’t be produced, despite whoever else might read them; when it involves your and your’s demonizing an entire group of people to gain leverage in a socio-political matter, regardless of the damage done to those people and whether it is actually true; when it involves closing doors of communication and interaction for everyone else, not just yourselves, it’s no longer just “your fight.”

If you are going to do and say thing that are going to speak and make decisions for everyone, not just you and your’s, you are going to have those others you involve speaking up. Whether it is with you or against you, is entirely up to how you and your’s want it to be.

Men are taught to apologize for their weaknesses, women for their strengths. ~Lois Wyse

So, what we have is two sides, who are so busy either defending themselves from rage, or find themselves spreading it, due to emotional bagage they carry inside, that nothing of any real value of consequence is done to actually address the issues, nothing gets changed and the cycle continues to repeat itself.

Or, to use the short version: “The wheels on the bus go round and round…”

You know, Ms. Pierce, your statements about how you are more “polished” than many of those who engage in the raging is a very good point. You’ve learned that raging alone will never get you anywhere and in some ways will only hold you back. You know that there are other ways and other tactics which much be used. I wonder then, why aren’t you helping these women to learn them?

Seriously, I’m not out to take a potshot here. You are in a perfect position to help guide these people down a better path. You can help them to acheive what you have and more. You could be one of those people who inspires others to greater heights than you yourself have reached.

I’m sure this isn’t what you became a writer for. But then, most leader types throughout history never asked for such responsibilites, either. Put your knowledge and status to work for the goals these women want to work towards. Show them how to be come more “polished” at getting their points across, so that people might actually listen, rather then just shut them out, because all they hear in the noise of raging. You have the power.

Maybe instead of indulging in your own emotional prejudices about what you think most male comic fans are like, you could move towards something much more helpful and positive. Who knows, it might even help you not have to be so “fearful” of the reception you say you think you’d receive. Because i’ve learned that creators who are not personally disrespectful and discourteous to the fans, usually don’t have anything to fear from them.

Then, perhaps, a new way of handling it should be done. Maybe they should get out to shows and talk to creators and editiors, whom they might think agree with their views and get them involved. Heck, even talk to ones who’s work you might not enjoy and see what they say (you might be surprised how many people would still agree with you, even if their own work isn’t what you enjoy).

Maybe getting them to speak up will help get more attention on your issues. And it would give you a small foot in the door of the industry, as well.

Maybe you should get organized, like Lisa is with P.O.W.E.R. in Comics, which is working, through positive means, to get more women and minorities into comics on every level (from creating to simply reading them).

How about putting together a “women in comics” fair of some kind. Spotlight some of the women who’ve already broken through and have the “battle experience” to pass on to others. Use it to show the great works that female creators have come up with.

These ideas are just off the top of my head, mind you. If I really sat down to think about it, I could probably come up with a lot more. But I think you get the point. there are still MANY positive things you can do to draw attention to the cause, that is much more useful, enjoyable and not as potentially harmful, as the online raging.

“And please, do not use the “do something about it instead of complaining” crap. They are doing something. They are making their voice heard loud and clear and the media is picking it up. Now more people know about issues that need to be looked at.”

You like the news media coverage of the MJ statue raging? Yeah, that was a real victory. Anything i saw on it, was basically just a fluff piece that played up what “nerds” comic geeks are. It only served to reinforce the Simpsons “Comic Booy Guy” stereotype and garner a good chuckle at the expense of comic fans (of both genders). I saw that was triumphed as a “victory.” If that’s victory, I’d HATE to see defeat.

How about you do something to garner the media attention, that does just give non-comic geeks more ammo to make fun of comic geeks for? You like, like some of the ideas I outlined above. And those came from a “fence sitter” on the issues. Imagine what someone with some real passion for them could come up with.

“I think the quote “Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History” says it best.”

Well, here’s another popular quote for you: “It is the victors who write the history.”

Right now, you haven’t won anything, save a shut down of communications with some of the very people whom you would want on your side. The raging has done more to turn potential allies into enemies, than help get people to rally to your cause. Perhaps it is time to rethink the tactics you use. Because, you know, it iS possible to be passionate and direct, without being insulting and tactless. As I said before, these issues won’t see resolution at the tip of a sword (verbal or otherwise). Look at the history of wars. Has it been the battles that brought about peace? Was it the death of heads of state deemed evil that fixed everything? Or was it the “behaved” attitude of those who came to the table and rationally and logically discussed things and worked to find common ground, which everyone could live with? The people who used compromise over ultimatums? Who used rationality over rage? You don’t have to answer, history has already done so.

You see, raging is easy. Raging doesn’t take a lot of effort (even though it might sometimes feel like it). But working towards compromise? Finding common ground? Working with methods that, while slow, ultimately have a longer lasting impact? Sure, it’s not as “flashy”. It’s not going to win you a parade. It IS, however, the way to see issue resolved.

Comic feminists are angry. I get that. They want their issues heard, if not actually addressed. I get that, too. But the raging online hasn’t moved you one step closer to the goal. In some way, in fact, it has moved you further back. It’s time for a new tactic. A new way of doing things. A way that, while not as flashy, will certainly bring you closer to a satisfying result.

Lisa:

Leave it to you to sum up in a couple lines, what I’ve been saying in post after post for years. Very nice.

Vail:

You know, of all the time I’ve heard people complain about the “make the comics” response, your’s is the only one that addresses an actual problem that the industry itself would actually give you.

Of course, going with your line of thinking, even someone who wanted to make the most misogynistic, sexist, female degrading comics ever thought up would have this same problem. It isn’t something “just women” would be dealing with. It’s universal.

This is just another small part of the reson I’m such a fence sitter on the “women in comics” issues. I agree there is an issue in need of being addressed, but as you pointed out here, there are other issues within the comic industry that would seem to bee even BIGGER than the one so many feminist complain about. Maybe if we all came together, rather then tearing each other apart, we could address issues like Diamond’s monopoly on the distribution side of the direct market, which holds back, not just women from getting their creative efforts to the shelves, but EVERYONE. Perhaps if we found solutions for these types of problems together, it would ease the tension on other issues (like womeni in comics).

Thisnk how great it would be, if a women could much more easily “make the comics” and get them to market? Maybe feminist wouldn’t see it as so much of an insult, when it was suggested. Maybe there would be enough new “female friendly” material out there, that you wouldn’t be so focused on stuff you didn’t like. Perhaps wecould elvel the playing feild for women in the industry. All these good potentials would come, by making getting the material to market with better/more distribution choices.

Of course, this would require the “raging” to take a back seat to working towards a real goal. It would require getting people, whom you may not agree with, to help support your efforts and provide their own. It would mean pursuasion over screaming. You know, a lot of the very things I’ve been saying all along. I’d LOVE to get behind a movement that didn’t insult me or my entertainment choices, and who’s goals would make for a better comic marketplace for everyone.

“We can’t force the Big Guys to hire more women, and since they don’t see us as a customer base, we can’t boycott their products with any effect. All we have left is to show our passion. If that passion is loud, crude or annoying, then so be it.”

And you see the effect it’s already had. Creators and industry insiders aren’t listening to you. They are shutting you out even more. They are only closing off communications, because they can’t stand the noise, not listening to the logic behind the rage. And it isn’t because they are all sexist bastards. Who among us enjoys getting screamed at and being insulted? That’s what the “legacy” of the feminist rage is, Vail. Not an expanding and opening of people’s minds, but a closing off and shutting down of communication between people. The very thing that will NEVER get the issues addressed. Perhaps it is time for a new tactic. Perhaps it’s time to look to a new goal, like the one you made about distribution. Because it’s pretty obvious to me that the raging isn’t getting the job done.

I understand what you’re getting at. I do. But the editors in my industry are smart people, and they know it’s a handful of people who do this. (And yes, there are people in the science fiction and fantasy industry with this reputation.)

But I am not going to bum-rap these women for expressing their rage as they choose to. As I see it, they have very good reason to be angry. I am angry, too. I am more polished than a few in the way I express my rage, but then, I used to write martial arts movie reviews, and I know the wittier and more well-thought-out reviews attract a greater readership than the short ones that just say the movie is bad or good. And there are more times than I can count when I wish I were not a public person and could just express myself online with the satisfying venom that they do. I could never do it in the book publishing community; when I wrote my thoughts on Mark Millar’s take on Sue Storm’s letter to Reed Richards in Civil War, I instantly found out I could no longer do it in comics, either. And now I can’t even talk about reproductive rights with satisfying crudity. So I will never say those women don’t have the right to talk as they like.

Would you extend your other foot for a moment? I’d like to put a shoe on it. Due to scheduling for New York (recording audio books) and plan fall-throughs for San Diego, Tim and I were unable to make the ComicCons in the last two years when we could go as creators

He’s been utterly disappointed. Frankly, I’ve been relieved. Given the reception I and other women have received in these last two years on male-dominated comics blogs, I positively dread the reception I would get at a ComicCon. Don’t get me wrong–there have been some really nice men on those blogs. But the majority of them are rude, insulting, and downright nasty. (They don’t listen well, either.) Other women have written they are reluctant to ask public questions at con panels for fear of being shouted down.

Call me over-sensitive if you like–but my view of male comics fans is based on my online experience, too.

Complaining is contagious. Haven’t you had someone you know who is always negative and complaining, and the more you talk with him/her, the more you find yourself doing the same thing? That contagion is spreading on the WWW too, it seems.

It is a HECK of a lot harder to be positive. So, when you ask for interviews the assumption is probably that it will be negative or you’ll argue or degrade – that’s because it’s SO common (and even popular – sites like TMZ.com get THOUSANDS of hits and their job is to rip on and degrade famous people) that writers and artists put their guard up right away, at least until they know more. It might not be a correct assumption, but it’s like going up to someone and saying, “I’m with the Enquirer and I’d like to do an interview.” Plus, many of them are rather shy to begin with.

If more people used the same amount of energy to complain as they did to do something constructive, bloggers, especially we feminist ones, would be seen in a more positive light. There ARE good sites, like this one, where issues are discussed but comics are also praised, not just ripped on. But in some cases it has almost become a contest to see who can complain more and garner more web hits in doing so. That’s not a good way to use your time or energy, in my opinion. How about actually DOING something? If you don’t like what a writer or artist does, let him/her know and the editors know with a letter writing campaign. Stop buying comics written by folks you disagree with, while promoting the heck out of those you DO agree with. Write a letter to the artist or writer and his/her bosses letting them know what/why you LOVE and SUPPORT their stuff.

Simply blogging hate will only make the blogosphere get painted with a broad and negative brush, making us all look like haters who won’t step up and publically try to make a difference.

Let’s stop that nonsense! I know I’m doing what I can
http://powerincomics.ning.com

I didn’t say, or mean to imply that you NEED the Marvel work – I’m very aware and congratulate you on your career as a novelist. All I ask is what your next meeting with an individual you (in my hypothetical example) called names or spoke to in an unprofessional, inappropriate manner might be like. Don’t you agree that, at the very least, your reception on a personal level might be somewhat less than enthusiastic, and less than it was previous to such hypothetical name-calling, etc.? If word were to get out that you spoke/wrote publicly about the EIC of a company like this, do you think that wouldn’t color your interaction with other EICs, or other editors? Now imagine that a handful of other fantasy novelists all engage (loudly and repeatedly) in name-calling and f-bombery, creating the perception that a large portion of the fantasy novelist community acts this way.

Wouldn’t that perception taint those fantasy novelists that don’t engage in such behavior, and require those same novelists to prove/show that they’re not “like that.”

An example of what I’m talking about comes from the time I was in the Navy. Now, the general perception of Navy people in a foreign country was (maybe still is) that when the ship pulls in to a foreign port after an extended period at sea, all “those guys” want is to get drunk, get laid, and get into fights (not necessarily in that order). I wasn’t interested in that, but because of the uniform I wore while visiting a place like the Philippines (in the 1980′s), from the moment I set foot on dry land, I was approached by dozens upon dozens of prostitutes, flyer and ad distributors for local bars and strip clubs, and antagonistic attitudes by local men my own age. Was that fair to me, when my greatest interest was getting away from the port-area bars and seeing some of the local area? Of course not – but I was painted in the same broad strokes as those sailors who came before me who DID engage in fighting, drinking, and whoring.

“It’s that I genuinely want people to feel they can come back to me with counter-arguments and debate, and get a polite reception.”

Exactly.

John Dallaire
pinkraygun.com

Okay–last time it got chopped to pieces. Let me try posting again.

Tammy, if you use the HTML italics tags (<i>Quoted text here.</i>) that should solve the problem of the text getting garbled. It’s also possible to use blockquotes (<blockquote>Quoted text here.</blockquote>) or simply putting the quoted text in quotation marks and putting your response under it.

Thanks!

As an experiment, this time, instead of being articulate and thoughtful in passionately denouncing the cover, accuse Joe Quesada of being a misogynist and a pig for allowing this cover to see the light of day. Drop a few f-bombs in your piece. Then do it repeatedly on message boards that you regularly frequent. I’m sure that eventually it will get linked to or reposted on a board that Mr. Quesada frequents. Maybe someone might actually send him an email directly with the links. I wonder what your next meeting with the EIC of Marvel might be like.

I don’t need the work, or the approbation of the chieftains of the Big Two. I am a bestselling novelist. My husband and I wrote White Tiger because we’ve been comics since we’ve been kids, and I’ll be heartbroken not to continue with her, but it isn’t worry for the boss’s wrath that keeps me from dropping f-bombs. It’s that I genuinely want people to feel they can come back to me with counter-arguments and debate, and get a polite reception. There is one notable exception, but only one.

And it’s not about being quiet, or bowing to the patriarchy, or anything else. It’s about being a professional and acting like one.

edited by John Dallaire to attempt fixing formatting issues.

Well, it is good to see I made an impact in your life.

“You seem to make it your entire life to crusade against women who are trying to speak out against the problems they feel in the comic book industry. You are trying to guilt us into stopping discussion with your hateful words. And they are hateful.”

Well, you are full well entitled to your opinion, as incorrect as it may be.

No, I’m not trying to “shut women up.” I’m trying to get people (both men and women) to see that letting their anger do their talking for them, doesn’t get issues they have addressed. Even more, it only creates new ones and the closing down of communications. If that would be equal to having women “shut up”, then one would have to wonder if they had anything of real value to say anyway, if raging online is the only way they can express it.

And there is no hate in my words. At least, not any that is put their by me. There is sadness, disbelief, and bewilderment in them at times, but no hate. If somoen wants to put hate in there, just like they want to believe Ron Marz dismembered the girl in the fridge, when he didn’t, there’s not really much either of us can do about that.

“If it is your personal crusade to silence women WHICH YOU ARE DOING, I will make it my crusade to silence you using your own methods. I will do what I can to pop up wherever you blog and use your own arguments against you.”

As I said, it’s not my goal to silence people, but to inform them that the methods and tactic they use to express their feelings can have serious reprocussions that will negatively affect whatever their true goal may be.

I, personally, haven’t seen any real results of my efforts so far, but if you claim I am having one, I thank you for that info. Of course, if they are taking what I do to mean what you say, let me say now that they misunderstand me and what I am saying. If you want to boil down everything I’ve said into one, easy to remember, catchprase it would be this: “Think before you post. Don’t let your rage speak for you.”

As for you following me around, that’s your call to make, my friend. I guess, in some way, I should be flattered that you find me so important to do that. I’d think you’d have better things to do, but if that’s how you want to run your own life, be my guest.

“Why are you complaining anyway, Meeley?”

I’d thought I’d already covered that, but I don’t mind stating it again.

I’m complaining for a lot of the same reasons Alpha-Girl wrote this post to being with. Because many years ago I saw this type of thing coming. Of how online rage would cause the connections and communication between comic creators and the audience to be closed off. Alpah-Girl’s story isn’t an insult to women, it’s a warning to everyone on how their online behavior can have very big negative reprocussion for everyone.

When I first got online almost 11 years ago, one of the main reasons I did so was so I could interact with the creators of the comics I enjoyed reading. Since then, due to online raging, many of them have cut down (or cut out) the type they spend online with the fans. And now, as Alpha-Girl’s own story shows, it spreading out into the real world, as well. This is why I’m complaining. Because we need to stop this type of thing, before the damage done is beyond the ability to repair.

“You’re not going to change anything if you keep doing this!”

Really? Well, this same point has been made about the online raging, too. You can see how ell that has worked towards getting people to stop and pause, before they go off.

“Why not make the effing comics about how women talk too much?”

Well, first, because that would only play right into the hand of those who berate me and prove what they want everyone to believe about me correct.

Secondly, that’s not what my point has been. I don’t say “women talk to much.” I say feminist raging online isn’t getting there issues addressed and is only creating more problems. The same thing Alpah-Girl is alluding to in her post.

Now, if the raging were to stop, would some woemn “not talk so much?” Perhaps, but that’s not because I don’t want them to talk. It would be because they truly had very little to say, that didn’t involve berating, insulting, or verbally abusing someone or something. It would show how the old adage “an empty barrel makes the most noise” is probably more true than anyone would care to believe.

Anyway, “Spectre”, I hope this has clarified for you what I’m trying to say and why I’m saying it. If you still want to stalk me across the Internet, that’s entirely up to you.

And thank you to Alpah-Girl for her disclaim on the behavior expected of those who post here. It does me good to see someone upholding the standards of civil discourse.