Looks like the idea of weaponized boobs has made it's way into the real world.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20081128/tod-ugandan-...

“So, if your aesthetics and your politics didn’t supplement each other in this instance, would the above article have been written?”

Since that isn’t the case, I can’t really answer that.

My opinion on how art and culture should be viewed has also never been static. It’s different now than it was when I was twenty, and I’m sure it will be different when I’m forty. Ten years ago, I probably wouldn’t have written the article and would have stood in the middle of the student union shouting about the opposite (there’s quite a lot I still shout about). But, everything I’ve been through since then has fundamentally changed the person that I am, and thus, has altered my views.

“I’m saying that interpretation should be on our own individual terms, rather than in the ideological terms of a group we are part of.”

Either/or again? These things aren’t mutually exclusive. We form our ideologies on a subjective, personal level, and just because an opinion may fall in line with a given ideology, doesn’t mean it wasn’t given individualistic consideration. Experiences with others inform our personal views, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that individuality is sacrificed in the bargain.

“Take Power Girl’s expression, for example. *snip critique*”

“Porn face” is a new one. That’s usually reserved for Greg Land and his infamous photoreferences.

So I take it you see Powergirl’s face and see something powerful, heroic, even empowering. Myself, I look at her, and I find the face scratchy, and blankly unemotive. But the perspective errors on the torso (belt faces where, now?), misshapen biceps, scoliotic spine, and bosoms that displace the ribcage are the far greater sins, and to me, present something freakish and parodic. That’s my aesthetic response, which I think informs my politics.

So, if your aesthetics and your politics didn’t supplement each other in this instance, would the above article have been written? You mentioned the women who’s political opinion reduced your eating disorder to a cultural byproduct. Didn’t that adverse experience with politics help form your opinion on how art and culture should be viewed? Not to mention an opinion on how feminists (at least some) think about art and culture, which you expressed in your initial argument.

I guess what I’m saying is, I hope you aren’t being reductive either. Critiquing something from a feminist viewpoint means critiquing from an individualized, personal view of what feminism is, not checking the manifesto or unthinkingly hating on some “misogynist conspiracy.”

When I say “be strong enough of mind to make that decision for yourself” , I’m saying that interpretation should be on our own individual terms, rather than in the ideological terms of a group we are part of. Look at all sides, weigh them, and make the decision for ourselves.

Take Power Girl’s expression, for example. It’s been said that she has porn face, vacant eyes, looks confused and unsteady. From my perspective, I see something totally different. I see a cool confidence in her stance, and her facial expression, to me, says “Are you seriously going to screw with me? You might want to think about that.” I give that very expression to my students all the time, so I bring that to my interpretation of the drawing. But, like I said, that’s me.

“You also make a distinction between the artistic and the political. Don’t the disciplines overlap? Can’t a gut reaction to art be informed by the same base emotions and values from which our political positions evolve?”

Absolutely. However, for me, as an individual, in this particular case, no. But, that doesn’t mean it can’t be for someone else.

I’ve never seen any kind of art as a static thing that communicates only the artist’s ideas. All work is open to interpretation, but we each bring our own experiences and values to it, adding that to whatever the artist’s original intent was. Any art we look at is a dialogue between the artist and the viewer. At this point, our culture is so multi-faceted and diverse that I wonder whether art is able to reflect it in it’s entirety.

You’re contention remains a little ideologically vague to me though. “It is what you make of it.” can imply a great deal. Does being “of strong enough mind” mean we shouldn’t interpret a work?
Or, if a work is open to interpretation, does that mean the art, or it’s artist, never communicated anything to begin with?

You also make a distinction between the artistic and the political. Don’t the disciplines overlap? Can’t a gut reaction to art be informed by the same base emotions and values from which our political positions evolve?

Or from a different angle: Do you consider the sociological idea that art can be a form of communication, or a reflection of culture, a sound premise in and of itself? Is it a flawed idea? Or is the issue that so many people take that premise, and overstating it, run down the slippery slope to art and culture being tantamount to brainwashing?

It’s an artistic stance, not a political one.

‘That comic art was “a misogynist plot to keep women down by coercing us all into developing eating disorders and wearing spandex.â€? Does anyone really believe this is how feminists think?’

I had been told by several people that my own eating disorder – from which I have thankfully recovered – was a direct result of patriarchal coercion via the misogynist media.
So, yes. There is a population of feminists that thinks that way. It certainly isn’t all feminist, but they are out there.

‘But if I’m wrong, and I should “accept it for what it is,â€? what is it?’

It’s what you make of it. Surely, you’re strong enough of mind to make that decision for yourself.

Rather than alleging any overstated threat, I say it’s ridiculous that a physical grotesquerie got past the cover editors. That her boobs were so much the focus of the cover that they utterly failed to notice everything else that was wrong, and let it go out as is. Rather than create an impression of heroism, Turner created something “freakish.” Y’think that’s what he was going for?

It’s sad that some of these covers are so blatently hypersexualized that readers of the material inside feel embarrassed or ashamed, and some are actively discouraged from buying it.

Are comics really thinking of their readers anymore? I’ve stopped buying the comics I find offensive, but I still have the right to say why I found them so awful in the first place.

Alpha, (if you are still reading) you say you don’t like the way women are drawn. Why not? Do you have different reasons than the ones commenters have gone over?

I think that Turner’s Powergirl is depressingly reflective of a tendency to warp female figures into anatomical absurdity to a greater degree than their male counterparts. But if I’m wrong, and I should “accept it for what it is,” what is it?

BTW – did you know there’s also a bingo card that people (i.e. men and women, feminists and otherwise) can use when trapped in discussions about misogyny in comics? It only has one box to tick and reads:

“Hey – I know you just successfuly countered all my arguments about why that [artist/writer/publisher/image] is misogynistic but the real point is that the whole [system/organisation/country/world] is inherently and institutionally misogynistic, so there.”

I find you get to tick that box quite a lot.

Comics are for everyone and believe it or not, Feminism is for everyone. I’m not sure what it is you guys are reading and why it’s being called an “all or nothing� pursuit. Go read Luce Irigaray, Helene Cixous, or Julia Kristeva. Feminist ideas can be a great alternative for men just as it can be for women when they feel the pressure of social roles.

Even the author recognizes that she is usually not happy with the way women are drawn and several examples have been cited where men have thought the drawing absurd and ridiculous, not sexy as I’m assuming Campbell intended. On one board, a male fan admitted to being embarrassed in buying it and feeling like “a pervert.�

Don’t we, the fan community boys and girls, deserve better than this? It’s not just about feminism. We as a community really shouldn’t be putting up with absurdity or feeling embarrassment to buy our favorite comics. How is it that in cases like this where even men wince at the cover we still get cornered as being “other� and somehow wrong, wrong, wrong? You mean editors and creators at DC brainstormed all night for something new and interesting and satisfying to fans and this is all they could come up with? We deserve better than that. We deserve our own comic fan bill of rights where just because you need a filler issue full of crap between major story lines doesn’t mean we have to buy it to keep up with continuity.

Can we please please please come up with something new?

Hi, heterosexual male here, just dropping by to say no, I don’t find that remotely sexy. Power Girl, in that image, does not look human, and I happen to be attracted to humans.

This is a discussion. We’re not writing white papers here. Are you trying to find a way to label Pink Raygun so we can be put in a box and dismissed as irrelevant? At the very least, it appears that semantics are being parsed for some other purpose.

Pretty much every time Batman is drawn leaping at the viewer, feet first. Since Wolverine tends to lead with his claws, not as much. But god forbid I catch a glimpse of any character drawn standing, legs spread, from a worm’s eye view to make him seem more impressive and imposing.

“They might have muscles like whoa but no one is drawing Aqua Man’s dong between his knees.”

You’re comparing the depiction of secondary sexual characteristics with primary.

A woman’s secondary characteristics are enlarged breasts, an average lower height than men, being wider in hips than in shoulders, and less facial hair. A man’s include more abdominal, chest and facial hair than women, broader shoulders and chest, greater muscle mass and physical strength, the Adam’s apple, and larger hands and feet than women.

Seems to me that every example of exaggerated secondary sexual characteristics, both male and female, are taken advantage of within the bounds of mainstream superhero comic books. If you want to make a fair comparison in this regard, it should be concentrated on the blatant and offensive depiction of camel-toe vs. the inability to tell if a male hero is circumsized or not by analysing shadow patterns on the costume trunks. Even then, you need to compare it across a single work. The only recent comic that comes to mind as far as camel-toe shots goes is Bomb Queen. If I’m not mistaken, the male characters in Bomb Queen are also drawn with distinctive, defined bulges in their pants. Comparing bulging manhood to breasts is like comparing sausages to watermelons. They may both be at the picnic, but they come from different parts of the store.

It’s not so much an argument for boobs as much as a list of reasons we should “recognize it for what it is.” But what is it? No, I don’t think it’s some crazy plot, but just what is it? And why should we argue for it?

It’s totally possible for a feminist to do that. But, if change is the goal, then action beyond talking is required. It’s very easy to dismiss talk. There comes a point when action has to be addressed, and companies are more likely to respond to actions that causes lost profits.

“Feminist analysis has never been an all-or-nothing proposition. ”

Unfortunately, that has been my personal experience.

Teresa: both are excellent points.

And this is why cultural critique is so important. It *helps* us to become aware of, and move away from these values. The anthropologists, sociologists, psychologists, economists and laypeople who practice cultural critique, even pop cultural critique, are not taking attention away from more pressing issues, they’re supplementing them.

It’s not an eithor/or choice. Critiquing comics doesn’t mean we’re ignoring or failing to speak out against the ID&E/partial birth ban, it just means we bring our concerns to our hobbies. Similarly, just because comics imagery provokes a loud response, that doesn’t mean we never discuss percieved failings in character and story.

Feminist analysis has never been an all-or-nothing proposition. If it were, we’d have to spend all our time talking about whatever the majority deemed most important. I have been told on various occassions that I shouldn’t complain about comics because abortion rights are more important, that I shouldn’t complain about abortion rights because Muslim women in the Middle East have it so much worse, (see BINGO card) that I shouldn’t complain about Muslim women having it worse, because there is AIDS in the world, and that affects everyone, and I shouldn’t complain about AIDS because it doesn’t directly affect me. But somehow I manage to talk about all these things. Miraculous, no?