An Argument for Boobs
I can’t take my eyes off Power Girl’s boobs. They’re like separate life forms that threaten to envelop the planet. If you’re going to draw boobs that big on a superheroine, can’t you at least weaponize them or make them mind control devices? Make them Boobs O’ Doom?
Michael Turner’s drawing of Power Girl on the cover of Justice League of America #10 is just silly, but it’s been polarizing. Some people find it funny (I’m one of those), others think that Turner simply can’t draw anymore, and others find it offensive and representative of everything that’s wrong with the way women are portrayed in comics.
That argument usually comes down to the way women are drawn, which is clearly as sex objects. That’s horrible, because we’re never portrayed as sex objects in any other medium. Never. Everywhere I look there are realistic portrayals of women in the movies, on television and especially in advertising.
That’s called sarcasm.
Movies, TV and advertising notwithstanding, the idea that the way women are drawn in comics creates an unattainable standard for women and plants the idea in fan brains that we should look like our over-sexualized comic counterparts is as silly as Turner’s drawing. It’s doubtful that guys reading comics think that women do or should look the way we’re drawn in comics. It’s a fantasy world populated by fantasy people.
It’s no different than me ogling Jeremy Piven (my mouth dropped open when he showed up in nothing but a towel in this week’s Entourage) or Matthew Fox or Trent Reznor. They’re hot. Do I expect my boyfriend to look like that? No. Do I expect all guys to look like that? No. The guys I’ve dated who did look like that were jerks and didn’t like Star Wars. Seriously, if you say Bubba Fett instead of Boba Fett, you can keep walking, pal.
My point is that the average fanboy probably knows he’s not going to get a porn star girlfriend and would probably be happier with a girl he can talk comics with. And maybe watch Caddyshack with.
There’s all this hullabaloo (oh my god! did I just say “hullabaloo”? when did I turn 80?) about the way women are drawn in comics, but what about the way we’re written? Jodi Picoult wrote Wonder Woman giving herself a pity party. Mary Jane Watson is your average bad girl, Gwen Stacy is your average good girl and they fight over Peter Parker. There isn’t much more to them.
I came across an Anti-Comics-Feminist Bingo card based on a general Anti-Feminist Bingo card. The idea is that your opponent in an argument about women in comics will have used three or more of the expressions on the card. I guess this is supposed to make me feel some kind of solidarity with my comic-reading sisters as we share a knowing snicker and eye-roll, but all it’s really doing is irritating me and perpetuating the idea that you can’t joke with a comic chick.
Here are some of the more annoying entries on the bingo card, along with my responses (in parentheses). “But, men are drawn unrealistically too!” (Well, they are.) “No one wants realism in comics!” (Not in our superhero comics. That’s a fantasy world.) “If you don’t like them, don’t read them.” (Seriously, don’t read them. Speak with your money.) “If you don’t like it, shut up and write your own.” (Now, that’s an empowering idea.)
Do I like the way women are drawn in comics? Usually not. But, I recognize it for what it is, and it isn’t a misogynist plot to keep women down by coercing us all into developing eating disorders and wearing spandex (although I do think that’s on the Bush agenda between now and November 2008). It’s a fantasy world.
By the way, “Boobs O’Doom” would be a funny name for a super villainess. She’s an Irish gal who went in for a breast reduction, and a mad plastic surgeon (who had read too many comic books) gave her high tech implants instead. One has the power to read minds, and the other has the power to control the minds of men, which is totally redundant because they already did that before the surgery.
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Oooh, so much truth in that thar article. Too many (so-called) feminists defeat their own arguments by seeing feminist causes even where none exist.
Sorry Girl-Wonder types but, the minute you started accusing the DC artists/writers/editors of misogyny, you lost your case. Does poor old Stephie deserve a trophy case? Absolutely. But the fact she hasn’t been given one is a result of poor writing and a cavalier attitude towards the nature of the characters involved (principally Batman, not Steph), rather than any deep-seated hatred of women.
Does Turner’s depiction of PowerGirl show him to be sexist? No. Look at his work on, say, “Superman/Batman: Supergirl” and it’s clear he just can’t draw characters very well – male or female. In the world of animation, he’d be assigned to drawing backgrounds (at which he often excels!), leaving the characters to someone else, someone with a better understanding of human anatomy and facial expressions.
Focus the criticism where it belongs. Turner didn’t design PowerGirl’s costume (or her disproportionate breast size!) He just can’t draw it as well as others.
I’m not sure I’m following you. You’re saying that because comics picture women as sex objects and movies, TV and advertising also picture women as sex objects, we shouldn’t complain about the comics?
The problem with the egregious awfulness of the sexy!sexy!art in many superhero books isn’t that men can’t distinguish fantasy from reality, or that women are insecure about superbabes. It’s that women *are* portrayed as sex objects – not people – everywhere, often, and it’s tiresome and tiring. Why shouldn’t people object when they see it in comics too?
“There’s all this hullabaloo (oh my god! did I just say “hullabaloo?? when did I turn 80?) about the way women are drawn in comics, but what about the way we’re written?”
Well, there’s a fair amount of hullabaloo (fabulous word!) over that too. You mention Jodi Picoult’s pity party, which has been well-discussed, and Mary-Jane and Gwen have both come up for feminist criticism.
As re: Bingo – it’s Bingo. If someone replies with one or two points on that card, no one generally gets miffed. It’s when they start adding up that I get irritated. Moreover, those lines are shorthand for arguments which come up all the time, and are easily refuted.
Men are drawn as superpowerful subjects, not supersexy objects. There’s a difference in the portrayl of “unrealistic”. “No one wants realism in comics” is often paired with “but rape happens to women in real life too!”, hence the placing them side by side. If I don’t like something, I *don’t* continue to read it, but that doesn’t bar me from saying why I didn’t like it, and won’t continue to read it. And I don’t object to being encouraged to make my own comics – I object to the part where it’s “shut up, and make your own comics”, or, “If you don’t make comics, you’ve no right to complain.”
And as for misogyny – who the heck said it was a conspiracy? We’re referring to institutional misogyny – the set of prejudices and assumptions which infect society and result in things like art that objectifies women. It’s not usually done out of malice. But it’s done. And we get to say so.
I have to agree that to often women are portrayed in a sexist way in comics. However, I realy don’t think big boobs are the real problem here.
As mentioned above: comics are set in a fantasy world, explicitly so even. Fantasy looks come with the territory.
Also, it is not as if guys are drawn in a realistic way either. Most of them look far more muscled and tough then their real life counterparts and some of them are quite yummy as well. I don’t hear any fanboys complaining about that and neither do the fangirls for that matter.
I draw myself and I love drawing my girls with big boobs. Why? I just like the look of big breasts. I don’t feel like the large cup sizes I draw are demeaning to women, I see them as a celebration of female beauty and glamour.
Since when is it wrong for a woman to have verry feminine lucious forms anyway?!?
I should also add: I am the proud owner of a pair of big boobs myself. Does that make me a vision of sexism created by my genes?
Anyway, you would not believe the amount of @#$& I have to put up with from other females because of these things that happen to be attatched to my body. I have big boobs, so I must be stupid, shallow and mean right….. I feel for my “fellow” comic sisters. They face the same stigma as I do.
The problem with comic women is not the way they are drawn, it’s the way they are written.To often are women portrayed as stupid, shallow,weak,naive or bitchy. There are some good female characters out there, but they are strongly outnumbered by the before mentioned kind.
This is a problem that originates from the writer however, not from the person drawing the thing.
I also want to point out that complaining about looks is a verry shallow thing to do. Women are already seen as shallow, obsessed with looks and insecyre about their own appearance. Do we raly want to add to that bycomplaining about some comic charactre’s breast size? Aren’t we more self secure than that?
Instead of demanding paper and pencil breast reductions, we should be asking for cerebral upgrades!
P.S. “Boobs O’Doom”….. tooooo funny!
If we’re going to address institutional misogyny, is comics, or any media for that matter, the right place to do it? Shouldn’t we be speaking for ourselves, making ourselves more than sex objects in the REAL WORLD, rather than letting the images speak for us? Are we really saying that, as women, we aren’t strong enough to shrug off the images portrayed by the media?
The Supreme Court and the Bush Administration is chipping away at our reproductive rights. There are now states that now have anti-abortion laws on the books that hold no exception for instances of rape or incest, or for instances when the woman’s life is at risk. Statistically, we still only make about 91 cents for every dollar a man makes for the same job. The workplace is hostile toward motherhood: we have no legal right to paid maternity leave, whereas most European countries have at least 12 weeks of paid leave. And that’s mandated by law.
Like Sakura, I also have large breasts for a gal of my size and put up with more crap from women than I do from men. I may get looks from men, but women feels it’s appropriate to come up to me and ask where I got my boobs and insist I’m lying when I say “my mom”. My other favorite comment is when a gal insists some guy is only talking to me because of my boobs.
I’ve been starting to draw comics myself and I’m sure at some point females will be appearing in them. As an artist I’ve been trying not to make all my females look as if they required a special table to walk around! Personally I find it unrealistic to expect all females to have huge breasts. Usually I shoot for a C-Cup, and I realize even this can be on the large side of things. By the same token I don’t draw all my males with bug huge bulging muscles. Its just not realistic. Yes, there are a few exceptions to this rule, I won’t lie about it, but those exceptions DO also happen in real life, but they’re just that, exceptions.
I watched a comic that I enjoyed reading degrade into a T&A book over the years as the artist of it got more confident with his work. I won’t name which. Not just for the females, but also the males. The females dressed with less and less realistic clothing, and even the supposedly physically weak(?) males had pectorals that looked like they could crush bear cans…… I should also note that you could see the muscles of these males under presumably business suites…. I think that’s about when I lost all respect for the artist at that point.
I think part of the problem of women (and males) being protrayed in the way they are in any medium, is a self fulfilling one. Some people (male and female) see magazines, ads, movies, whatever and get a mentality (be conscious or not) of “I want to look like that,” thinking that is the only way to attract a mate. Then they set about to try and fit that mold and it only fulls the media to continue this mentality. (That and “sex sells” seems to be the answer I get a lot…..)
Breaking this mold will certainly take quite an effort on everyone’s part, not just the people who make the medium, but also its viewers. Its important to not get carried away with what you see on television, in movies, or read in a comic book. They are in fact fantasy, and the characters drawn with-in are usually idealized versions of that artist’s fantasy.
I would suggest that you actually read Karen’s column for yourselves first.
Respectfully submitted.
Typical! A conversation about snoobs gets five comments YET my various entries of badly punctuated yet scintillatingly, sublime diatribes of congealed and rambunctiously moistening fiddle faddle gets nary a flicker of a twitch from the flaccid consciousness that nests here!
You people are obsessed with hooters! SO what the Power Girl has a rack that defies geometry? Good for her! I salute her and so does Harry Callahan here, don’tcha big man?
“Go on out and get some air, fatso.?
Top man H. So this old comics demeaning chicks debate; I want to unleash your true feelings.
“If I tried that your head would be splattered all over this field.?
Um… we’re not on a field!
“Now, where’s the girl?
Girl? You mean Powergirl? Here… on this comic…. Check out the rack on that!
“You know, you’re crazy if you think you’ve heard the last of this guy. He’s gonna kill again?
You’ve lost me. All I know is that this ridiculously inflated set of imaginary jubblys makes La Petit Tamworthian strangely happy… am I wrong?
“Get out of the way, Hammerhead?
Thats very nice of you… if a little forward.And there he goes… Detective ‘Dirty’ Harry Callahan, the cutting edge of modern policing and post, post, post modern feminism. Where were we? Oh yeah… I was making toast…
This isn’t an attack on Karen. I simply used the bingo card to illustrate a point.
Arilou, this is just a friendly discussion about common concerns.
I hear you on the boobs, Alpha-Girl, Sakura. Mine are ginormous too, and I got endless grief from my friends, family and workmates over them. I hate comments like “Power Girl sucks because all she has is big breasts!” too.
But the issue isn’t that Power Girl sucks – Power Girl is totally awesome. The issue is that everything about Power Girl is made to revolve around her boobs. Look at that cover up there. Her face is totally vacant, her breasts stick out like a shelf, and *someone drew her that way*. There is nothing wrong with having big breasts. There is a lot wrong when writers and artists emphasise, over and over, that the most important thing about a character, the best reason to value her, is that she has them.
It goes like this. Culture says “women have no value outside being sexy or mothers, and thus must be sexy (or motherly) always. Big breasts are sexy.” Is it any wonder, hearing and seeing that everywhere, that some small-breasted women get angry, and displace that anger onto large-breasted women? They’ve been denied some measure of worth! It’s stupid, because the real target is the misogynistic cultural values that say “sexysexysexy!” and not “person.”
As for fighting misogyny in the “real world”, as opposed to comics (which surely appear in the real world?): I do. I donate; I speak at public functions and in private conversations; I teach young women; I live in. I also do this. It’s not an either/or thing. I think culture is important; that culture comes from and influences the real world, and that seeing women as objects of desire, rather than the subjects of stories is a poisonous reflection of a disgusting worldview. That’s why I critique it.
Also, I note you’re using American examples of “our” rights. I’m not American, although I sympathise with and am enraged by the plight of American women.
Wait…what do you mean Turner can’t draw anymore ?
As has been said, misogyny isn’t so much a “plot” or conspiracy as it is a set of ingrained, attitudes. Powergirl’s large breasts aren’t the whole complaint. They’re positioned and anchored so incorrectly, combined with a spine and ribcage that are actively displaced, and creepy popeye biceps. It’s a mystery to me, how that level of distortion could be seen as sexy.
In contrast, there was a recent dust up among male fans when an Alex Ross cover featuring Citizen Steel had a visible bulge in his spandex undies, as opposed to the flat, indistinct, or even concave areas often featured on many male superheroes. Some bloggers were unused to seeing a superheroic “package” at all, and assumed that it was…standing at attention, if you will. The twist? Ross paints realistically, from live models. As per his friend Andy Mangels’ comments here: http://comics212.net/2007/04/19/afraid-of-cock
the model “was not erect. Nor packing any serious baseball bat.”
What does it say about some male readers when they praise or tolerate the hyperexaggeration of female sexual characteristics, but react viscerally to realistic, relatively nonsexual depictions of male sexual characteristics?
In Western culture we are moving, however slowly, away from the belief that “women have no value outside being sexy or mothers, and thus must be sexy (or motherly) always.” I realize that in other parts of the world, this is far from the case.
However, annoying we may find it, comics are an art and art, particularly in comics, deals in ciphers. We’ll have a dissertation on that topic next week.
Also, I really question whether people truly find this drawing of Power Girl sexy. Granted, I haven’t read every single blog or message board post on the topic, but the overall impression I’ve gotten (even from guys) is that she looks freakish, not sexy. Turner may think she’s sexy, but he’s clearly having some vision problems.
No, not sexy, but a sex *object*. Her breasts are prominent, her face is blank. It’s an emphasis on sexual characteristics, as opposed to personality.
Would we not all agree that comic books is an art form?
Isn’t that art form open to interpretation?
So let’s stop complaining that people are complaining. You have the first amendment right to draw boobs however you like, but people also have the first amendment right to mock or complain about it. It’s art!
For me, it comes down to this. Power Girl is a superhero. She’s not Vampirella. She’s not Lady Death. She’s not included in that genre purposely created to mockingly titillate. She’s a superhero. Seeing her like this would be like the equivalent of Superman wearing bootie shorts and showing off his buns of steel. That will never happen because of what he represents. Couldn’t it be argued that Power Girl represents something in the save vein as Supes?
Pink Raygun put a Scott McCloud quote over the picture saying that “There is no life here except that which you give to it.? Again, this is art, right? Of course we make meaning out of Power Girl and also these pictures of her. But remember this: there are artists that create these characters and these images. The chose to give her these grotesque boobs. These choose how she poses and what she says. We, the readers, also make meaning out of that, out of what we’re given.
Are men depicted inaccurately? Yes. But when was the last time you saw a gratuitous crotch shot of Batman or Wolverine? They might have muscles like whoa but no one is drawing Aqua Man’s dong between his knees. In theory, a woman of Power Girl’s size probably wouldn’t have that much muscle, either. But inaccurate depictions on women are usually focused on one or two body parts.
Personally, I found the feminist comic bingo card empowering. Those are the same old tired excuses men tell the women who love comics but point out bizarre breasts or count the number of dead women found in refrigerators or the number of female heroes who get de(fl)powered. Make your own comics then, comics won’t change, etc. Is it so impossible for a feminist woman to sit back and enjoy a comic book and talk about it without having to start a revolution or her own comic company?
Some of the commenters so far have contradicted themselves: on one hand, this is only ink and complainers are over reacting. On the other hand, this ink is all vaginas’ fault for the bigger picture of how we supposedly portray ourselves in society. Is it just ink or it bigger than that?
What it is, is annoying. Had Power Girl got a breast reduction, would the fan base have turned on her? Would she somehow be less powerful? Would the character somehow be written different? I doubt it. It’s an annoying, petty little sales gag. Only DC can count on one less reader.
I really don’t like the distinction between “powerful” and “sexy” – as if women had to be one or the other. As if sexy weren’t powerful, or powerful weren’t sexy. I think sex appeal is one of the many weapons women have in their arsenal, and I hate the idea that in order to be a feminist, I’d have to downplay one side of myself in order to focus on the other. I’m smart, AND hot, AND a good person. So there!
Also, the way women are portrayed in “superhero” comics is really different than the way they’re portrayed in comics like “Y: The Last Man”, or Buffy Season #8 – which lends even more credibility to the idea that comic writers see a difference between “fantasy women” (with super powers), and “normal women” (who still kick ass, but have smaller boobs and wear more clothing).
“In Western culture we are moving, however slowly, away from the belief that “women have no value outside being sexy or mothers, and thus must be sexy (or motherly) always.? I realize that in other parts of the world, this is far from the case.”
And this is why cultural critique is so important. It *helps* us to become aware of, and move away from these values. The anthropologists, sociologists, psychologists, economists and laypeople who practice cultural critique, even pop cultural critique, are not taking attention away from more pressing issues, they’re supplementing them.
It’s not an eithor/or choice. Critiquing comics doesn’t mean we’re ignoring or failing to speak out against the ID&E/partial birth ban, it just means we bring our concerns to our hobbies. Similarly, just because comics imagery provokes a loud response, that doesn’t mean we never discuss percieved failings in character and story.
Feminist analysis has never been an all-or-nothing proposition. If it were, we’d have to spend all our time talking about whatever the majority deemed most important. I have been told on various occassions that I shouldn’t complain about comics because abortion rights are more important, that I shouldn’t complain about abortion rights because Muslim women in the Middle East have it so much worse, (see BINGO card) that I shouldn’t complain about Muslim women having it worse, because there is AIDS in the world, and that affects everyone, and I shouldn’t complain about AIDS because it doesn’t directly affect me. But somehow I manage to talk about all these things. Miraculous, no?
“Is it so impossible for a feminist woman to sit back and enjoy a comic book and talk about it without having to start a revolution or her own comic company?”
It’s totally possible for a feminist to do that. But, if change is the goal, then action beyond talking is required. It’s very easy to dismiss talk. There comes a point when action has to be addressed, and companies are more likely to respond to actions that causes lost profits.
“Feminist analysis has never been an all-or-nothing proposition. ”
Unfortunately, that has been my personal experience.
Teresa: both are excellent points.
So is this the official Pink Raygun position on this issue? I ask because the Myspace bulletin that came out today called the article a “position.”
It’s not so much an argument for boobs as much as a list of reasons we should “recognize it for what it is.” But what is it? No, I don’t think it’s some crazy plot, but just what is it? And why should we argue for it?
“Are men depicted inaccurately? Yes. But when was the last time you saw a gratuitous crotch shot of Batman or Wolverine?”
Pretty much every time Batman is drawn leaping at the viewer, feet first. Since Wolverine tends to lead with his claws, not as much. But god forbid I catch a glimpse of any character drawn standing, legs spread, from a worm’s eye view to make him seem more impressive and imposing.
“They might have muscles like whoa but no one is drawing Aqua Man’s dong between his knees.”
You’re comparing the depiction of secondary sexual characteristics with primary.
A woman’s secondary characteristics are enlarged breasts, an average lower height than men, being wider in hips than in shoulders, and less facial hair. A man’s include more abdominal, chest and facial hair than women, broader shoulders and chest, greater muscle mass and physical strength, the Adam’s apple, and larger hands and feet than women.
Seems to me that every example of exaggerated secondary sexual characteristics, both male and female, are taken advantage of within the bounds of mainstream superhero comic books. If you want to make a fair comparison in this regard, it should be concentrated on the blatant and offensive depiction of camel-toe vs. the inability to tell if a male hero is circumsized or not by analysing shadow patterns on the costume trunks. Even then, you need to compare it across a single work. The only recent comic that comes to mind as far as camel-toe shots goes is Bomb Queen. If I’m not mistaken, the male characters in Bomb Queen are also drawn with distinctive, defined bulges in their pants. Comparing bulging manhood to breasts is like comparing sausages to watermelons. They may both be at the picnic, but they come from different parts of the store.
“Official position?” Congress of a cow is a position.
This is a discussion. We’re not writing white papers here. Are you trying to find a way to label Pink Raygun so we can be put in a box and dismissed as irrelevant? At the very least, it appears that semantics are being parsed for some other purpose.
“Also, I really question whether people truly find this drawing of Power Girl sexy. Granted, I haven’t read every single blog or message board post on the topic, but the overall impression I’ve gotten (even from guys) is that she looks freakish, not sexy.”
Hi, heterosexual male here, just dropping by to say no, I don’t find that remotely sexy. Power Girl, in that image, does not look human, and I happen to be attracted to humans.
It comes down to this: Don’t we, the fan community, deserve better than this?
Comics are for everyone and believe it or not, Feminism is for everyone. I’m not sure what it is you guys are reading and why it’s being called an “all or nothing? pursuit. Go read Luce Irigaray, Helene Cixous, or Julia Kristeva. Feminist ideas can be a great alternative for men just as it can be for women when they feel the pressure of social roles.
Even the author recognizes that she is usually not happy with the way women are drawn and several examples have been cited where men have thought the drawing absurd and ridiculous, not sexy as I’m assuming Campbell intended. On one board, a male fan admitted to being embarrassed in buying it and feeling like “a pervert.?
Don’t we, the fan community boys and girls, deserve better than this? It’s not just about feminism. We as a community really shouldn’t be putting up with absurdity or feeling embarrassment to buy our favorite comics. How is it that in cases like this where even men wince at the cover we still get cornered as being “other? and somehow wrong, wrong, wrong? You mean editors and creators at DC brainstormed all night for something new and interesting and satisfying to fans and this is all they could come up with? We deserve better than that. We deserve our own comic fan bill of rights where just because you need a filler issue full of crap between major story lines doesn’t mean we have to buy it to keep up with continuity.
Can we please please please come up with something new?
Same here. I can’t see that picture as an example of what passes for sexy so much as an example of what passes for poor artwork.
BTW – did you know there’s also a bingo card that people (i.e. men and women, feminists and otherwise) can use when trapped in discussions about misogyny in comics? It only has one box to tick and reads:
“Hey – I know you just successfuly countered all my arguments about why that [artist/writer/publisher/image] is misogynistic but the real point is that the whole [system/organisation/country/world] is inherently and institutionally misogynistic, so there.”
I find you get to tick that box quite a lot.
It’s not that we’re upset Alpha isn’t towing the party line, it’s that she initially refuted an argument no one made. That comic art was “a misogynist plot to keep women down by coercing us all into developing eating disorders and wearing spandex.” Does anyone really believe this is how feminists think?
Rather than alleging any overstated threat, I say it’s ridiculous that a physical grotesquerie got past the cover editors. That her boobs were so much the focus of the cover that they utterly failed to notice everything else that was wrong, and let it go out as is. Rather than create an impression of heroism, Turner created something “freakish.” Y’think that’s what he was going for?
It’s sad that some of these covers are so blatently hypersexualized that readers of the material inside feel embarrassed or ashamed, and some are actively discouraged from buying it.
Are comics really thinking of their readers anymore? I’ve stopped buying the comics I find offensive, but I still have the right to say why I found them so awful in the first place.
Alpha, (if you are still reading) you say you don’t like the way women are drawn. Why not? Do you have different reasons than the ones commenters have gone over?
I think that Turner’s Powergirl is depressingly reflective of a tendency to warp female figures into anatomical absurdity to a greater degree than their male counterparts. But if I’m wrong, and I should “accept it for what it is,” what is it?
‘Alpha, (if you are still reading) you say you don’t like the way women are drawn. Wehy not? Do you have different reasons than the ones commenters have gone over?’
It’s an artistic stance, not a political one.
‘That comic art was “a misogynist plot to keep women down by coercing us all into developing eating disorders and wearing spandex.? Does anyone really believe this is how feminists think?’
I had been told by several people that my own eating disorder – from which I have thankfully recovered – was a direct result of patriarchal coercion via the misogynist media.
So, yes. There is a population of feminists that thinks that way. It certainly isn’t all feminist, but they are out there.
‘But if I’m wrong, and I should “accept it for what it is,? what is it?’
It’s what you make of it. Surely, you’re strong enough of mind to make that decision for yourself.
I’m sorry that you’ve encountered feminists who engaged in such gross presumption regarding a deeply personal struggle.
You’re contention remains a little ideologically vague to me though. “It is what you make of it.” can imply a great deal. Does being “of strong enough mind” mean we shouldn’t interpret a work?
Or, if a work is open to interpretation, does that mean the art, or it’s artist, never communicated anything to begin with?
You also make a distinction between the artistic and the political. Don’t the disciplines overlap? Can’t a gut reaction to art be informed by the same base emotions and values from which our political positions evolve?
Or from a different angle: Do you consider the sociological idea that art can be a form of communication, or a reflection of culture, a sound premise in and of itself? Is it a flawed idea? Or is the issue that so many people take that premise, and overstating it, run down the slippery slope to art and culture being tantamount to brainwashing?
“It is what you make of it.? Yes, it’s vague, but it’s also very personal. Everything is open to interpretation, but it’s important that we experience and interpret on an individual level. As a culture, we’re very interested in being part of a group or a team as a way of defining ourselves, and while participation is positive, it’s easy to lose ourselves to that group and take on that group’s identity as our own. I see it all the time in high school students.
When I say “be strong enough of mind to make that decision for yourself” , I’m saying that interpretation should be on our own individual terms, rather than in the ideological terms of a group we are part of. Look at all sides, weigh them, and make the decision for ourselves.
Take Power Girl’s expression, for example. It’s been said that she has porn face, vacant eyes, looks confused and unsteady. From my perspective, I see something totally different. I see a cool confidence in her stance, and her facial expression, to me, says “Are you seriously going to screw with me? You might want to think about that.” I give that very expression to my students all the time, so I bring that to my interpretation of the drawing. But, like I said, that’s me.
“You also make a distinction between the artistic and the political. Don’t the disciplines overlap? Can’t a gut reaction to art be informed by the same base emotions and values from which our political positions evolve?”
Absolutely. However, for me, as an individual, in this particular case, no. But, that doesn’t mean it can’t be for someone else.
I’ve never seen any kind of art as a static thing that communicates only the artist’s ideas. All work is open to interpretation, but we each bring our own experiences and values to it, adding that to whatever the artist’s original intent was. Any art we look at is a dialogue between the artist and the viewer. At this point, our culture is so multi-faceted and diverse that I wonder whether art is able to reflect it in it’s entirety.
Thank you for the elaboration. I’m finally beginning to see, if not entirely agree with, your perspective.
“I’m saying that interpretation should be on our own individual terms, rather than in the ideological terms of a group we are part of.”
Either/or again? These things aren’t mutually exclusive. We form our ideologies on a subjective, personal level, and just because an opinion may fall in line with a given ideology, doesn’t mean it wasn’t given individualistic consideration. Experiences with others inform our personal views, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that individuality is sacrificed in the bargain.
“Take Power Girl’s expression, for example. *snip critique*”
“Porn face” is a new one. That’s usually reserved for Greg Land and his infamous photoreferences.
So I take it you see Powergirl’s face and see something powerful, heroic, even empowering. Myself, I look at her, and I find the face scratchy, and blankly unemotive. But the perspective errors on the torso (belt faces where, now?), misshapen biceps, scoliotic spine, and bosoms that displace the ribcage are the far greater sins, and to me, present something freakish and parodic. That’s my aesthetic response, which I think informs my politics.
So, if your aesthetics and your politics didn’t supplement each other in this instance, would the above article have been written? You mentioned the women who’s political opinion reduced your eating disorder to a cultural byproduct. Didn’t that adverse experience with politics help form your opinion on how art and culture should be viewed? Not to mention an opinion on how feminists (at least some) think about art and culture, which you expressed in your initial argument.
I guess what I’m saying is, I hope you aren’t being reductive either. Critiquing something from a feminist viewpoint means critiquing from an individualized, personal view of what feminism is, not checking the manifesto or unthinkingly hating on some “misogynist conspiracy.”
I doubt we’re ever dealing with an “either/ or” situation in this area. However, if I were to outline every shade within that range, I’d be typing for days.
“So, if your aesthetics and your politics didn’t supplement each other in this instance, would the above article have been written?”
Since that isn’t the case, I can’t really answer that.
My opinion on how art and culture should be viewed has also never been static. It’s different now than it was when I was twenty, and I’m sure it will be different when I’m forty. Ten years ago, I probably wouldn’t have written the article and would have stood in the middle of the student union shouting about the opposite (there’s quite a lot I still shout about). But, everything I’ve been through since then has fundamentally changed the person that I am, and thus, has altered my views.
The size of the ideal woman has changed radically over the years. You only need to look at fashion models and womens and mens magazines to see the changes from big to almost boyishly flat and back to big again. Comic books have always celebrated big breasts and yes I feel celebrate is the correct term. Yes comic books objectify women, so does most art in some form or another but comic books have also always championed the strong, secure woman that mainstream sources have always found threatening. Few women have written mainstream comic books and so their representation has been through the male perspective. Look at Gail Simone and her work on Birds of Prey to see well written female characters. The comic book reader does not expect women to look like Powergirl any more than they expect a spiderbite to give them superpowers.
Great read, especially when combined with some of the other Power Girl/JLA #10 commentary. It’s led me to the following question/challenge at my own blog (http://captionbox.net/loosepages/?p=312):
Name a flat-chested heroine…even one will do.
?
Setting aside the whole feminist schtick for a moment, Michael Turner’s depiction of Power Girl is not at all sexy when it all comes down to anatomy. A man/boy or a girl who likes girls could idolize this image and believe the character to be sexy but taking it one step further, Power Girl would look like a mutant if she took her top off! To have boobs that size and in that location (which is way too low!) you have to have one of two things 1) “the fakest boobs ever” as Molly from Runaways would say or 2) breasts so outrageously large, and victim of gravity, that they hang well below the knees and need to be folded up in order to form that rotund shape. All I can think about when I see the image is option 2, it’s disturbing to say the least but anyone holding a woman with breasts that large in such sexual fancy is in for a world of shock when the clothes come off!
"…can’t you at least weaponize them or make them mind control devices? Make them Boobs O’ Doom?"
Looks like the idea of weaponized boobs has made it's way into the real world.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20081128/tod-ugandan-...